AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 11 hours ago, Thomas5737 said: He had 2 passing TDs and 4 interceptions in his 4 losses this season, I'm going to guess he didn't play as well in those games. It still isn't all his fault, I'm not saying that or implying that. I'm stating his big games passing come in blowouts. He had 3 big passing games this year, two were against the Lions and Dolphins, huge blowouts where the game was decided in the 1st half. Nothing wrong with it, just a fact. He also had a good passing effort against the Rams in OT so I'm not saying it's the only time, but things get easier. He had the highest PFF grade of any QB in the week we lost against Pittsburgh because the Ravens WR's had 7(?) dropped passes, including I think 3 touchdowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 3 minutes ago, MaddHatter said: So is choking just an event? Not a trait? I think of choking as something that happens because someone's mentally incapable of handling the stress of the moment and they "freeze" or are unable to process and make decisions in the moment. Whether that's in the middle of combat with bullets flying around you or under the bright lights surrounded by 100,000 screaming fans, sometimes the moment can be too big for someone. That being said, if a player plays big in big games in College, it would seem like he has that trait to be clutch, even if he's not 100% all the time. If it's just a way to label an event or a moment (he choked when he under threw that pass to the TE in triple coverage) then that's different than labeling him as a choker in my opinion. So I remember watching this documentary on HOF QB Ken Stabler. He was being interviewed and he talked about how he was in the little league championship or whatever as a kid, it’s the 9th inning they needed a strikeout and he delivered it and won the ship. His Dad after the game asked him how he did that, The Snake says I just went out and did what I always do it’s easy, anybody could do it. His dad shook his head and said I couldn’t do that, I’d screw up under the pressure, how did you stay so cool under the lights?? Choking is a singular event. Doing it regularly makes You a choker. Just like how a guy can hit a buzzer-beater, or pitch a strike out, that’s a clutch play, but doing it regularly makes you clutch. So basically I agree with you in a sense, being able to handle the moment is the difference. Some can handle it some can’t, and if you do it regularly enough you get a label. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddHatter Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, Chiefer said: So I remember watching this documentary on HOF QB Ken Stabler. He was being interviewed and he talked about how he was in the little league championship or whatever as a kid, it’s the 9th inning they needed a strikeout and he delivered it and won the ship. His Dad after the game asked him how he did that, The Snake says I just went out and did what I always do it’s easy, anybody could do it. His dad shook his head and said I couldn’t do that, I’d screw up under the pressure, how did you stay so cool under the lights?? Choking is a singular event. Doing it regularly makes You a choker. Just like how a guy can hit a buzzer-beater, or pitch a strike out, that’s a clutch play, but doing it regularly makes you clutch. So basically I agree with you in a sense, being able to handle the moment is the difference. Some can handle it some can’t, and if you do it regularly enough you get a label. Fair enough - thanks for at least explaining your viewpoint. So in a scenario where Lamar goes on to win 3 rings in the last 5 years of his career, he was a choker who developed and became clutch (per se) ala Peyton Manning. If so, then in that same view, if Patrick goes on to finish the rest of his career (10yrs+) and never wins another ring, never wins another AFCC, goes 1 and done a few times, and his play is average at best in the post season, do we say that he regressed and became a choker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 16 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: He had the highest PFF grade of any QB in the week we lost against Pittsburgh because the Ravens WR's had 7(?) dropped passes, including I think 3 touchdowns. Must have been a pretty slow week for quarterbacks since he turned it over twice in the last couple minutes of the game and didn't have a TD all game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamq Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Michael Jordan was labeled a choker after his first 6 years in the league. Stat padder. Selfish. Can't win with that style of basketball. Is Lamar Michael Jordan.. of course not. But the rhetoric is tired. If Lamar was a choker or couldn't handle the big lights, how did they make it to the AFCCG? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 9 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said: Must have been a pretty slow week for quarterbacks since he turned it over twice in the last couple minutes of the game and didn't have a TD all game. almost like if your WR's drop multiple TD passes you might not have any. Weird! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 19 minutes ago, MaddHatter said: Fair enough - thanks for at least explaining your viewpoint. So in a scenario where Lamar goes on to win 3 rings in the last 5 years of his career, he was a choker who developed and became clutch (per se) ala Peyton Manning. If so, then in that same view, if Patrick goes on to finish the rest of his career (10yrs+) and never wins another ring, never wins another AFCC, goes 1 and done a few times, and his play is average at best in the post season, do we say that he regressed and became a choker? As far as with Pat, he’d have to wilt under the pressure a lot to get relabeled. Like a lot. His down by 10 and still winning the game stat is legendary at this point. He literally went through an entire championship run being down by 10+ each playoff game and won a ring. kinda hard to label that guy as a choker. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 3 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: almost like if your WR's drop multiple TD passes you might not have any. Weird! The pick was the real game changer. Turnover gives you 1st and goal at the 5 or so and you've got a 10-8 lead with 5 minutes left and he throws it right to Porter. The strip sack fumble on the next drive is just something that happens. Could say he needs better awareness but whatever. The three "dropped" TDs weren't really TDs anyway. Bateman should have caught his even though it was behind him a bit in the endzone. Flowers fell, looked like he may have been adjusting to the throw as he got tripped up but that isn't a dropped TD, he didn't get close to the ball. The other one to Agholor at the sideline was catchable but I don't think he stays in bounds after he makes the catch to score anyway. Not the easiest catch especially for a poor hands receiver. There were a lot of catches that game where the receivers were catching balls thrown behind them so while they took away they also gave. Overall not a real clean game from Lamar and I'm not sure how he graded so high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notthatbluestuff Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 4 hours ago, MaddHatter said: Fair enough - thanks for at least explaining your viewpoint. So in a scenario where Lamar goes on to win 3 rings in the last 5 years of his career, he was a choker who developed and became clutch (per se) ala Peyton Manning. If so, then in that same view, if Patrick goes on to finish the rest of his career (10yrs+) and never wins another ring, never wins another AFCC, goes 1 and done a few times, and his play is average at best in the post season, do we say that he regressed and became a choker? Ovechkin was always viewed as a playoff choker - until he won. (Granted, Ovie’s postseason performances were significantly better than Lamar’s have been thus far but my point stands) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Reed Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, notthatbluestuff said: Ovechkin was always viewed as a playoff choker - until he won. (Granted, Ovie’s postseason performances were significantly better than Lamar’s have been thus far but my point stands) I’m sure very few people in here follow Lacrosse, but Maryland made the final 4 in men’s lacrosse under John Tillman in 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, and 2016 and failed to win the National Championship. They lost in the finals in ‘11, ‘12, ‘15 and ‘16. Tillman was labeled as a choker locally - and for good reason. Dominant regular seasons every year and came up just short time and time again. Since then he won the National Championship in 2017 and 2021, and is widely regarded as one of the greatest lacrosse coaches in history. From 2011-2016 it was entirely accurate to call him a choker. Now that he’s won two rings, you look at his entire career and say he’s one of the greatest coaches of all time. If Lamar wins a ring, the entire narrative changes, but it’s entirely fair to call him a choker until that happens. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagahide13 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Andy Reid was a choker 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddHatter Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 4 minutes ago, nagahide13 said: Andy Reid was a choker It is interesting how his reputation changed from his time in Philly to now 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 If we're going cross sports, A-Rod (baseball) was a choker until he roided up and carried the Yanks to the World Series in 2009. But Yankee fans still called him a choker after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigInBoys Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Will clown Flowers always be on the team? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamq Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 This is me anytime someone asks "can blank win a championship?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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