AngusMcFife Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 15 hours ago, Thomas5737 said: If they both retired today, Mahomes is a maybe and Lamar is a hard not even close. Mahomes is 65th all time passing. Lamar is 151st, right behind David Garrard. Lamar will be judged on his entire work, not his rushing. Vick isn't close to being HOF worthy. I'm sure Lamar will eventually rise through the ranks of all time passers (Vick is currently 100th) but currently he isn't close. He has had two better than average seasons and one of those is 29 total touchdowns and 13 turnovers, yes, that's an MVP season somehow. Players w/ 2 MVPs: Mahomes A. Rodgers Brady Manning Warner S. Young Montana Unitas Jim Brown Sure, Lamar will play more years and add to his volume stats. But as far as accomplishments go, winning 2 MVPs would put him in an inner circle of all time great players. Winning 2 MVPs in a stacked league of QBs including Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, etc, is legendary stuff. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 18 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: Players w/ 2 MVPs: Mahomes A. Rodgers Brady Manning Warner S. Young Montana Unitas Jim Brown Sure, Lamar will play more years and add to his volume stats. But as far as accomplishments go, winning 2 MVPs would put him in an inner circle of all time great players. Winning 2 MVPs in a stacked league of QBs including Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, etc, is legendary stuff. well, let's pause on that for a minute. Is the league really stacked at QB's right now? I honestly don't think so. Burrow and Rodgers were out most of the year, Mahomes had a down year, Allen started off really slow, Brady is retired. His main competition this year was Tua and Brock Purdy. The current QB class in the NFL is really weak compared to what it was in the 2000's or 2010's. And this will probably be one of the weakest MVP years in a long, long time. Lamar's 2019 was truly legendary, historic stuff. Leading the NFL in passing TD's and such while also leading in rushing and doing everything he did - MVP. This year he's winning MVP because a lot of other candidates faltered in certain situations down the stretch more than anything while he didn't. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 11 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: Players w/ 2 MVPs: Mahomes A. Rodgers Brady Manning Warner S. Young Montana Unitas Jim Brown Sure, Lamar will play more years and add to his volume stats. But as far as accomplishments go, winning 2 MVPs would put him in an inner circle of all time great players. Winning 2 MVPs in a stacked league of QBs including Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, etc, is legendary stuff. Those are all championship quarterbacks (and one RB). Who knows what the future holds, maybe Lamar will be a HOFer when it is all said and done but he isn't right now and it isn't close. Using MVPs as proof of something when all of his passing stats are worlds from where those players compare with their generation is just silly debating to debate. Dale Murphy won back to back MVPs, was at worst a top 3 player in the 80's with many all star games and gold gloves and he didn't reach the MLB HOF. Championships matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: well, let's pause on that for a minute. Is the league really stacked at QB's right now? I honestly don't think so. Burrow and Rodgers were out most of the year, Mahomes had a down year, Allen started off really slow, Brady is retired. His main competition this year was Tua and Brock Purdy. The current QB class in the NFL is really weak compared to what it was in the 2000's or 2010's. And this will probably be one of the weakest MVP years in a long, long time. Lamar's 2019 was truly legendary, historic stuff. Leading the NFL in passing TD's and such while also leading in rushing and doing everything he did - MVP. This year he's winning MVP because a lot of other candidates faltered in certain situations down the stretch more than anything while he didn't. Purdy was statistically better but he has a better supporting cast so I guess you have to punish him for that. They both had 4400 yards passing/rushing. Purdy led the league in rating, TD%, Y/A and other categories, Lamar led in nothing. Brock had 33 TDs and 13 turnovers, Lamar had 29 TD and 14 turnovers. The Ravens finished hot and Lamar had a big final game so he went from 3rd or 4th to #1 in a week which just shows how fickle we all are. You're right though, not only is it not a legendary MVP season it's may be the last time a QB wins with having less than 30 passing TDs let alone less than 30 total TDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said: Those are all championship quarterbacks (and one RB). Who knows what the future holds, maybe Lamar will be a HOFer when it is all said and done but he isn't right now and it isn't close. Using MVPs as proof of something when all of his passing stats are worlds from where those players compare with their generation is just silly debating to debate. Dale Murphy won back to back MVPs, was at worst a top 3 player in the 80's with many all star games and gold gloves and he didn't reach the MLB HOF. Championships matter. Just be sure to reserve your spot at Lamar's HOF induction ceremony early so you can state your objections. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said: Dale Murphy won back to back MVPs, was at worst a top 3 player in the 80's with many all star games and gold gloves and he didn't reach the MLB HOF. Championships matter. And remind me, how many Super Bowl wins do HOF QBs Marino, Moon, Fouts, and Jim Kelly have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 12 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: And remind me, how many Super Bowl wins do HOF QBs Marino, Moon, Fouts, and Jim Kelly have? No dog in the fight, but you're being deliberately obtuse, here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said: Just be sure to reserve your spot at Lamar's HOF induction ceremony early so you can state your objections. We're talking about today so I don't have to reserve anything, I'm here. Give me your reason why he should be in today. 2 MVPs. A lot of rushing yards for a QB. Then a mess of stats that he doesn't come close to when compared to an average QB career. Lamar averages a few less passing yards per game than Otto Graham who played in the 40s and 50s. 184 passing yards per game for Lamar. He needs to work on his resume for a few years, then the conversation can be had. He hasn't cemented anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said: And remind me, how many Super Bowl wins do HOF QBs Marino, Moon, Fouts, and Jim Kelly have? Wanna compare yards and TDs? One won't look like the other four. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodeeWater_Cheezburger Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) I find it hard to believe that Lamar won't get one before his career is over. He is too good of a player, and the Ravens are too well run of an organization not to put him in a position to get it done. It's almost inevitable, IMO. John Elway lost a few earlier in his career, and then ended up winning two Super Bowls. I could see Lamar doing that. Edited February 6 by SodeeWater_Cheezburger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 42 minutes ago, SodeeWater_Cheezburger said: I find it hard to believe that Lamar won't get one before his career is over. He is too good of a player, and the Ravens are too well run of an organization not to put him in a position to get it done. It's almost inevitable, IMO. John Elway lost a few earlier in his career, and then ended up winning two Super Bowls. I could see Lamar doing that. He has 2 more years in Baltimore for sure, then after the 2025 season I imagine they will either extend him for cap relief (he is owed 75 million in 26 and 27) or go in another direction. It probably depends on how his legs hold up. If he goes elsewhere it may not be as good of a situation (Ravens fans may debate this as they don't think he has much help). While still electric, I think he has slowed down a touch already. If it's a gradual slow down I think he will have quite a few more years in Baltimore. If it's more rapid I think they cut bait after 2025. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said: Give me your reason why he should be in today. Sure: 9th all time in passer rating (98.0) 3rd all time in rush yards/attempt (6.0) 5th all time in TD/INT ratio (2.78) 5th all time in QB winning % (75.3%) 2 All Pros and 2 MVPs (1 pending) in 5 seasons as starter - 1st one over Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Mahomes, Allen - 2nd one over Mahomes, Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) Bear with me for a moment and let's agree that Rodgers and Brady are previous era HoFers (10s). Besides Mahomes, what other QB is going to the HoF from this era (20s?) Josh Allen and Joe Burrow and everyone else would essentially still have to create their HoF career in order to be a HoFer. I'll take odds on the guy with two MVPs, which imo are the best award you can have on a resume. I think he needs to stay healthy for a few more seasons, but he seems as much of a lock as you can be at QB outside of Mahomes/Rodgers, imo. Edited February 6 by Soggust 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 6 minutes ago, Soggust said: Bear with me for a moment and let's agree that Rodgers and Brady are previous era HoFers (10s). Besides Mahomes, what other QB is going to the HoF from this era (20s?) Josh Allen and Joe Burrow and everyone else would essentially still have to create their HoF career in order to be a HoFer. I'll take odds on the guy with two MVPs, which imo are the best award you can have on a resume. I think he needs to stay healthy for a few more seasons, but he seems as much of a lock as you can be at QB outside of Mahomes/Rodgers, imo. If we pretend playoff performances and passing stats aren't heavily weighed, then sure. His two MVP season he passed for 60 TD. Manning did 55 in one year. Not all MVPs are the same. You could seriously debate that Lamar's 2020 season was better than his 2023 season and he wasn't even a probowl QB. Just a weird year and they insist on not giving it to the best player (McCaffrey). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodeeWater_Cheezburger Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 50 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said: He has 2 more years in Baltimore for sure, then after the 2025 season I imagine they will either extend him for cap relief (he is owed 75 million in 26 and 27) or go in another direction. It probably depends on how his legs hold up. If he goes elsewhere it may not be as good of a situation (Ravens fans may debate this as they don't think he has much help). While still electric, I think he has slowed down a touch already. If it's a gradual slow down I think he will have quite a few more years in Baltimore. If it's more rapid I think they cut bait after 2025. Sounds reasonable. He's a good guy. I hope things work out for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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