Will the Ravens ever win the Superbowl with Lamar Jackson?

[Soggust]

10 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

If it's Flacco right now I'm obviously still taking Lamar. We saw Joe this year in the playoffs and it wasn't pretty. Flacco in his prime had this ability to just elevate his game when it mattered. I always joked that you had to carry Flacco to the playoffs, but once the playoffs rolled around Flacco would carry you.

Lamar, for whatever reason, doesn't have that ability to elevate his game when the pressure is on especially in games where he didn't start out hot in the first place. I believe he puts too much mental pressure on himself and when things go a little south, unless he uses his legs he ends up making boneheaded mistakes with his arm. 

So with Flacco, is clutchness something you can lose? 

If so, can you also gain it? An example perhaps being Elway?

Cause I think I take my chances with MVP Lamar learning to be clutch vs Prime Flacco's talent (and he was talented) every single time, especially if clutchness can vary year-to-year (assuming you get their abilities, not necessarily stats).

[notthatbluestuff]

17 hours ago, Soggust said:

I don't follow basketball so it's hard to give you a fair answer, but I'd assume I'd lean towards small samples and good competition (being playoffs) as my default go-tos in most convos lol

To be fair “doesn’t perform well against good competition” isn’t much of a step up from “choked.”

[adamq]

18 hours ago, BroncoSojia said:

If "choking" isn't a thing, then how do you explain James Harden's performances in the playoffs year after year?

He doesn't really care about winning obviously. Strip clubs, money, stats, winning in that order 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, Soggust said:

So with Flacco, is clutchness something you can lose? 

If so, can you also gain it? An example perhaps being Elway?

Cause I think I take my chances with MVP Lamar learning to be clutch vs Prime Flacco's talent (and he was talented) every single time, especially if clutchness can vary year-to-year (assuming you get their abilities, not necessarily stats).

I certainly think you can gain and lose it. I think Lamar can gain it, it just comes with him not putting so much pressure on himself idk. Lamar always seems really uptight and really just pressing HARD especially in playoff games.

[AngusMcFife]

3 hours ago, BroncoSojia said:

By most rankings, the Ravens had a top 7 offensive line this year. Their WRs were above average, they have a top 3 TE duo, and their running game were tops in the league this year. I know a lot of that was due to Lamar, but they didn't have scrubs running the ball.

To me it is unclear if the O-line was good or that they get a lot of favorable matchups because the edge rushers can't press up the field because of the fear of Lamar escaping the pocket. My eye during the regular season showed me LT Stanley (average), Simpson (slightly-below average), Linderbaum (above average), Zeitler (used to be good, but now average) and Moses (average). They were relatively healthy, though, so if you grade them as a unit they would get a decent score due to continuity. When you watch them against the Chiefs who had a good plan, they were badly exposed.

IDK if the WRs were above average, the no. 1 WR was a rookie who played a lot in the slot, and Agholor was their no. 2. Not sure if any WR corps with Agholor as no. 2 should be considered above average, especially with an underwhelming no. 1 in Flowers. They had good depth though. 

Justice Hill and post-injury Gus Edwards are pretty much the definition of scrub RBs. Gus Edwards would be a sub 4.0 y/c on most other offenses.

Quote

. Even if they did have better regular season success, I don't believe the team would fair better in the postseason with Lamar over Flacco.

They would have had to win fewer postseason games because they'd have the 1 or 2 seed. This is getting quite hypothetical, I'm not going to bash your opinion but there's no way to know. I think if Lamar is on the 2008-2012 team they probably win 1 Super Bowl, although maybe not in 2012. Flacco barely contributed to a lot of those early playoff wins. He was carried by great veteran leadership.

[El Ramster]

Problem with Lamar is that he’s a ticking time

bomb. Running QBs have a very short window. He has 3/4 years left of peak play. Before the ohh he’s different, he’s special he’s a 2 time mvp. Same was said about Vick, cam

and others. Baby there is so much data to back it up. He’s been hurt and has missed games. Don’t come at me with the he’s the 1%. He can play all he wants he still sucks in the post season. Till it changes and he does something about it! Get my name tatted on your as so I know it’s real. 

[Bonanza23]

[Towerbridge]

This season was Lamar's real shot and he blew it

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, Towerbridge said:

This season was Lamar's real shot and he blew it

He will have earned his spot in the HOF when he wins his 2nd MVP, which is not a bad accomplishment after 6 seasons.

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, Towerbridge said:

This season was Lamar's real shot and he blew it

I don’t disagree but the same can be said for Josh Allen who had his team go All In and he too had Mahomes at home and couldn’t get it done. 

But the reality is that both Allen and Lamar will have other shots as well.

With Jim Harbaugh entering the AFCW and with Andy Reid on the brink of winning a 3rd Super Bowl and solidifying his status as a top 5 HC all time, you’d have to think he’ll strongly consider retiring after this season if they win a ring. 

So really it’s quite possible that the Chiefs dynasty is entirely over after this season and this was Mahomes “last chance” to get a ring. And as the dynasty ends, it opens the door more widely for Lamar and Allen, along with Herbert and perhaps Burrow and Purdy to seize the moment down the line.

We might be entering a new NFL season with Mahomes Sr situation looming over Mahomes with no Andy Reid and a declining and distracted Kelce in his breakup (and her in her revenge phase) with Swift by that point.

 

So did Lamar blow this opportunity? Sure. He wasn’t alone and he didn’t play terribly and those who say he did are forgetting that he technically led what should’ve been 2-3 scoring drives and caught his own pass. If Zay Flowers doesn’t go full retard that’s a TD and the game is potentially going into overtime or Ravens have momentum and aren’t pressing later. Not to be “that” guy but there’s no question that Likely was tackled prior to the interception on that dumb throw into triple coverage from Lamar. The reality is that in an alternate universe the Ravens score on that Zay Flowers play going down 14-17 and that DPI is called and Gus Edwards drives in for 7 on the very next play to put the Ravens up 21-17 to complete the comeback.

Or at the very least in another reality the DPI is called and the Ravens go down 14-17, with the Tucker FG scenario pushing the game into OT. The NFL audience was robbed of that result playing out to its natural conclusion and seeing if Lamar would’ve come through in the clutch or if Mahomes would’ve still answered with some magic when necessary.

The Chiefs got the job done under the circumstances they saw and they’re to be commended for that. But a flagrant no call was made in the AFCCG and I don’t believe that should be the determining factor as to whether Lamar is considered to have played a “bad game”, “clearly not clutch”, and “never going to win a ring” vs the reality that both Mahomes and Lamar were facing great defenses and they both didn’t particularly do enough to indisputably “win” the game, but Mahomes did absolutely nothing to lose it, while Lamar absolutely did more to lose it. Mahomes was an elite game manager that made some incredible and key plays in key moments and Lamar was just an above average game manager that played a slightly defense but probably made a few more spectacular plays, while making more boneheaded plays as well.

[Soko]

On 2/4/2024 at 12:46 PM, Soggust said:

So with Flacco, is clutchness something you can lose? 

If so, can you also gain it? An example perhaps being Elway?

Cause I think I take my chances with MVP Lamar learning to be clutch vs Prime Flacco's talent (and he was talented) every single time, especially if clutchness can vary year-to-year (assuming you get their abilities, not necessarily stats).

I know the “clufch factor” is pretty looked down upon here, but I don’t really believe that playoffs are just normal games vs tougher competition that some guys just so happen to not come to play in. I also don’t view it as a “do/don’t have” kind of switch - some guys will come up big one year, then falter the next. While others may choke one year, and win it another. 

I think it’s more something where, after some sort of sample size is observed (no, I don’t have a number in mind), we can confidently say that Player X tends to struggle or come up smaller in the postseason, and Player Y typically doesn’t. Of course it’s volatile, so the end results can always change season to season, but it’s much less specific than saying a guy has “clutchness” or not, IMO.

Peyton Manning wasn’t a clutch playoff performer, not really. Still retired with two SB rings. He was so good, that he afforded himself tons of bites at the apple, to the point where even if he wasn’t elite in the postseason, the team still made it over the hump. That’s basically where Lamar is at, for now. Not a guy who’s shown thus far to play like an elite QB for a postseason run, but is definitely good enough to keep getting to the postseason and may be able to turn that gas on in the right circumstances.

[Soggust]

10 minutes ago, Soko said:

I know the “clufch factor” is pretty looked down upon here, but I don’t really believe that playoffs are just normal games vs tougher competition that some guys just so happen to not come to play in. I also don’t view it as a “do/don’t have” kind of switch - some guys will come up big one year, then falter the next. While others may choke one year, and win it another. 

I don't necessarily agree, but I do think that's a fair position.

 

10 minutes ago, Soko said:

I think it’s more something where, after some sort of sample size is observed (no, I don’t have a number in mind), we can confidently say that Player X tends to struggle or come up smaller in the postseason, and Player Y typically doesn’t. Of course it’s volatile, so the end results can always change season to season, but it’s much less specific than saying a guy has “clutchness” or not, IMO.

If you said "Player X has struggled to come up in the postseason previously", I would be 100% on board.

I just think that if we agree that it's volatile year-to-year, then it makes it hard for me to take it seriously when using it to project future seasons.

I know the logic is "well we use past experience to predict future results" (like all stats) but I guess I like relying on the entire body of work rather than reducing to a small sample size because I don't quite share the initial assumption that you made first about the playoffs not simply being an extension of the season, if you will.

But again, your position is consistent, therefore fair, imo.

 

10 minutes ago, Soko said:

Peyton Manning wasn’t a clutch playoff performer, not really. Still retired with two SB rings. He was so good, that he afforded himself tons of bites at the apple, to the point where even if he wasn’t elite in the postseason, the team still made it over the hump. That’s basically where Lamar is at, for now. Not a guy who’s shown thus far to play like an elite QB for a postseason run, but is definitely good enough to keep getting to the postseason and may be able to turn that gas on in the right circumstances.

Totally agree and I personally would take Peyton Manning in a vacuum over about all but 3 QBs all time, regardless of his playoff success, even if we were entering the season starting in the playoffs.

Edited February 6 by Soggust

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

He will have earned his spot in the HOF when he wins his 2nd MVP, which is not a bad accomplishment after 6 seasons.

That's an MVP for every playoff win!

He isn't even close to the HOF yet. Mahomes is probably iffy at the moment and they are in different zip codes, or maybe even different countries.

Lamar is a few thousand passing yards short of Emmitt Smith's career rushing yards. He also has less passing/rushing TDs than Emmitt had rushing.

No, I'm not making a Lamar is a RB joke, just showing how far away he is from the HOF.

[Nobellythrower]

15 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Mahomes is probably iffy at the moment and they are in different zip codes, or maybe even different countries.

Mahomes is first ballot, the guy is in brady talks, lamar can is a lock for the hall of fame with 2 mvps and once he breaks vick rushing yard total , he'd be the best rushing qb in nfl history.

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, Nobellythrower said:

Mahomes is first ballot, the guy is in brady talks, lamar can is a lock for the hall of fame with 2 mvps and once he breaks vick rushing yard total , he'd be the best rushing qb in nfl history.

If they both retired today, Mahomes is a maybe and Lamar is a hard not even close. Mahomes is 65th all time passing. Lamar is 151st, right behind David Garrard.

Lamar will be judged on his entire work, not his rushing. Vick isn't close to being HOF worthy. I'm sure Lamar will eventually rise through the ranks of all time passers (Vick is currently 100th) but currently he isn't close. He has had two better than average seasons and one of those is 29 total touchdowns and 13 turnovers, yes, that's an MVP season somehow.