Second Greatest Player of All Time Behind Brady

[MaddHatter]

1 hour ago, game3525 said:

I don't think people were blinded by anything. Manning was better then Brady in the 2000s. 

At what? Throwing INTs?

[game3525]

3 hours ago, MaddHatter said:

At what? Throwing INTs?

At playing QB? More MVPs, all-pros, higher QB rating, more touchdowns, even post-season numbers were pretty similar during the 2000s. Honestly, the fact that Tom was first team all decade over Peyton in the 2000s is a joke.

[MaddHatter]

15 hours ago, game3525 said:

At playing QB? More MVPs, all-pros, higher QB rating, more touchdowns, even post-season numbers were pretty similar during the 2000s. Honestly, the fact that Tom was first team all decade over Peyton in the 2000s is a joke.

5.7TD% 2.7INT% (2.11) 539-251 (2:1)

5.4TD% 1.8INT% (3.00) 649-212 (3:1)

Your MVP/All-Pro argument just reinforces my point - he was propped up as the Golden Boy by the media and everyone swooned over him, but he wasn’t the better QB looking back.  Brady’s 2007 season was better than  Peyton’s 2004 season as well and Peyton winning in 2003 was a joke. Peyton also had more talent around him in the 2000s than Brady ever had his entire career. 

[lancerman]

On 2/22/2024 at 11:50 AM, MaddHatter said:

5.7TD% 2.7INT% (2.11) 539-251 (2:1)

5.4TD% 1.8INT% (3.00) 649-212 (3:1)

Your MVP/All-Pro argument just reinforces my point - he was propped up as the Golden Boy by the media and everyone swooned over him, but he wasn’t the better QB looking back.  Brady’s 2007 season was better than  Peyton’s 2004 season as well and Peyton winning in 2003 was a joke. Peyton also had more talent around him in the 2000s than Brady ever had his entire career. 

There's a reason for the "give Manning the MVP" meme and it's largely because they basically defaulted to him towards the end of the decade. 

The reality is that the big argument from 2001-2004 was "Brady's the winner, but he has better defenses, Mannings better statistically, but he has better offenses". People wanted to see if Manning could win as much as Brady if you gave him a better all around cast and if Brady could put up Manning numbers if you gave him an all star WR cast like Manning. Brady proved in 2007 that he could in fact put up Peyton Manning numbers if you gave him a preemium WR. Brady continued to have lights out seasons whenever he had top tier talent on offense. Manning didn't win as much as Brady even when he did start getting better overall teams and the two times he did win, he was far less impressive than Brady was in his wins, Trent Dilfer was probably the only QB Super Bowl winning run worse than Manning's 2006 in the 00's and Manning's 2015 win is probably the straight up worst QB Super Bowl run since then. 

Also people SEVERLY underestimate how much better Brady was at avoiding INT's. Brady started 68 more games and still has 39  less INT's. Statistically that means Brady would essentially have to play at his pace 7-8 extra seasons at his pace to match Manning in INT's. That basically means Brady was half a franchise QB's career better than Manning at that. When you compare them statistically, that's far and away the biggest differentiator.

[SodeeWater_Cheezburger]

This will be an unpopular take, but I think Jerry Rice is being highly overrated in this thread.  People always point to his career stats, and sure, they look great, we should also remember that he was very fortunate to have been drafted by the team he was.  The year before Rice came into the league, Joe Montana and the 49ers went 15-1 and won the Super Bowl. 

Compare that to Megatron, who went to a long struggling Lions team.  I'm not trying to say Jerry Rice was a scrub.  He was a terrific player, but I do think he had the good fortune of being in an extremely good situation for a wide receiver, and that had to help his production - a lot.

[AngusMcFife]

10 hours ago, SodeeWater_Cheezburger said:

This will be an unpopular take, but I think Jerry Rice is being highly overrated in this thread.  People always point to his career stats, and sure, they look great, we should also remember that he was very fortunate to have been drafted by the team he was.  The year before Rice came into the league, Joe Montana and the 49ers went 15-1 and won the Super Bowl. 

Compare that to Megatron, who went to a long struggling Lions team.  I'm not trying to say Jerry Rice was a scrub.  He was a terrific player, but I do think he had the good fortune of being in an extremely good situation for a wide receiver, and that had to help his production - a lot.

Rice had an utterly incomparable peak (6x leading in receiving yardage and TDs), and at age 40 was still pulling in 90 receptions for 1200 yards and 9 TDs in Oakland.

If anything being on a dominant team would reduce Rices numbers. Having big leads in the second half means the offense will dial down the aggressiveness and run out the clock. If Rice was on a mediocre team he would have had even greater stats.

Comparing him to Megatron who quit at age 30 is a joke IMO.

EDIT: I'll add that Rice's age 40 season was just as good as Megatron's age 30 season, while Rice's season was in a much more difficult passing environment with no WR protections.

Edited February 24 by AngusMcFife
Added a point

[game3525]

On 2/22/2024 at 11:50 AM, MaddHatter said:

5.7TD% 2.7INT% (2.11) 539-251 (2:1)

5.4TD% 1.8INT% (3.00) 649-212 (3:1)

Your MVP/All-Pro argument just reinforces my point - he was propped up as the Golden Boy by the media and everyone swooned over him, but he wasn’t the better QB looking back.  Brady’s 2007 season was better than  Peyton’s 2004 season as well and Peyton winning in 2003 was a joke. Peyton also had more talent around him in the 2000s than Brady ever had his entire career. 

The only questionable all-pro Manning has won were 2008-09.  Even when you take those away, he has more then Brady in the 2000s and Manning was probably robbed in 2006 when they picked Brees over him. Also Brady's 2007 is not better then Peyton's 2004.  The only thing 07 Brady has on 04 Peyton is just volume. Peyton threw 49 touchdowns in 497 passes, Brady threw 50 in 578 and Peyton sat out a ton of games in the fourth while NE was running up the score in 2007.  Peyton's Any/a was full point higher the Brady's that year. 

Edited February 24 by game3525

[SodeeWater_Cheezburger]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Rice had an utterly incomparable peak (6x leading in receiving yardage and TDs), and at age 40 was still pulling in 90 receptions for 1200 yards and 9 TDs in Oakland.

If anything being on a dominant team would reduce Rices numbers. Having big leads in the second half means the offense will dial down the aggressiveness and run out the clock. If Rice was on a mediocre team he would have had even greater stats.

Comparing him to Megatron who quit at age 30 is a joke IMO.

EDIT: I'll add that Rice's age 40 season was just as good as Megatron's age 30 season, while Rice's season was in a much more difficult passing environment with no WR protections.

I wasn't trying to compare Rice's career to Megatron's.  I was just using it as an example to contrast the two situations they were in.  The offense they had in San Francisco was a perfect fit for Rice, and he had the quarterback who up to that time, was the best who ever had played the game. 

You can say they got big leads and then dialed it down in the second half, but how did they get the big leads?  By scoring early on inferior teams.  Rice got his numbers, even if he wasn't doing it for 60 minutes of every game.  Does it really matter if it took 3 quarters or 4 quarters?  Not really.  Now, of course Rice does deserve some of the credit for their being able to do that, and I'm not begrudging him of that.  I just think people who are calling him the second best player who ever played the game are overstating it.  That's my opinion.  I know there are a lot of people who may agree with you.  I just see it another way.

As for who IS the 2nd best player ever, I don't have a strong feeling for any one player.  There have been so many great ones (including Jerry Rice), that it's very difficult to say.

[AngusMcFife]

28 minutes ago, SodeeWater_Cheezburger said:

I wasn't trying to compare Rice's career to Megatron's.  I was just using it as an example to contrast the two situations they were in.  The offense they had in San Francisco was a perfect fit for Rice, and he had the quarterback who up to that time, was the best who ever had played the game. 

You can say they got big leads and then dialed it down in the second half, but how did they get the big leads?  By scoring early on inferior teams.  Rice got his numbers, even if he wasn't doing it for 60 minutes of every game.  Does it really matter if it took 3 quarters or 4 quarters?  Not really.  Now, of course Rice does deserve some of the credit for their being able to do that, and I'm not begrudging him of that.  I just think people who are calling him the second best player who ever played the game are overstating it.  That's my opinion.  I know there are a lot of people who may agree with you.  I just see it another way.

As for who IS the 2nd best player ever, I don't have a strong feeling for any one player.  There have been so many great ones (including Jerry Rice), that it's very difficult to say.

Fair. My personal opinion is the Montana is a bit overrated and Rice was the true superstar. 

In 24 games QBed with the 49ers not QBed by Montana and Young, Rice's numbers average out to 90 receptions, 1450 yards, and 16 TDs per season. So he was dominant with or without his top QBs. Then he was very good with Gannon as an old man, that pretty much wraps any debate up IMO. 

[ukjets21]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:25 PM, AngusMcFife said:

Brady didn't elevate himself above his peers. Kinda hard to say Brady had 3 HOF careers when he only had 3 All Pros. Rice had 10 1st team All Pros. Rice was far and away the best WR during his career, while Brady was about as good as Manning, Rodgers, Brees, and Mahomes. Brady was rarely appreciably better than his peers.

It's not hard at all, in terms of the length of his career you could divide it in 3 and they'd all get voted into the HoF. Brady was better than Manning, Brees, and Rodgers. His overlap with Mahomes is smaller and a lot of it comes when he's over 40 so that's right but also not surprising. The difference wasn't as big as some others have said but that's because Manning especially is a name that could be argued as the 2nd best QB ever.

[mdonnelly21]

22 hours ago, SodeeWater_Cheezburger said:

This will be an unpopular take, but I think Jerry Rice is being highly overrated in this thread.  People always point to his career stats, and sure, they look great, we should also remember that he was very fortunate to have been drafted by the team he was.  The year before Rice came into the league, Joe Montana and the 49ers went 15-1 and won the Super Bowl. 

Compare that to Megatron, who went to a long struggling Lions team.  I'm not trying to say Jerry Rice was a scrub.  He was a terrific player, but I do think he had the good fortune of being in an extremely good situation for a wide receiver, and that had to help his production - a lot.

Im just shocked that he’s got so many more votes than Montana who won 2 SBs without Rice and whom many believe Brady was chasing. 

[SodeeWater_Cheezburger]

11 hours ago, mdonnelly21 said:

Im just shocked that he’s got so many more votes than Montana who won 2 SBs without Rice and whom many believe Brady was chasing. 

Exactly!  Montana led the Niners to a 15-1 record and a Super Bowl win the year before Rice was drafted.

[AngusMcFife]

13 hours ago, ukjets21 said:

It's not hard at all, in terms of the length of his career you could divide it in 3 and they'd all get voted into the HoF. Brady was better than Manning, Brees, and Rodgers. His overlap with Mahomes is smaller and a lot of it comes when he's over 40 so that's right but also not surprising. The difference wasn't as big as some others have said but that's because Manning especially is a name that could be argued as the 2nd best QB ever.

Can you point to a period of several years that Brady clearly separated himself from his peers? When was Brady's dominant peak when he outperformed all his contemporaries?

2000-2005: Yes Brady has the rings, but his regular season numbers are pedestrian. Championships were built on Belichick's defense, innovative video tape analysis, very good luck, and a few clutch throws by Brady

2006-2013: This is Brady's "prime" in which we won 2 MVPs, but no Super Bowls. Over the same time period Manning won 3 MVPs and 1 Super Bowl. Brady's 2007 was historic, but so was Rodgers in 2011 and Manning in 2013. Brees is putting up better bulk stats with sky high completion %.

2014-2022: Brady gets back to winning championships, but only has 1 MVP season that frankly isn't that impressive compared to some of the amazing seasons by Cam, Ryan, Mahomes, Lamar, and Rodgers.

So yes, looking at his career totals is very impressive, but he never dominated his position like Jerry Rice, LT, or Jim Brown did. He was never the clear cut best player at his position.

[CP3MVP]

On 2/24/2024 at 11:25 AM, game3525 said:

The only questionable all-pro Manning has won were 2008-09.  Even when you take those away, he has more then Brady in the 2000s and Manning was probably robbed in 2006 when they picked Brees over him. Also Brady's 2007 is not better then Peyton's 2004.  The only thing 07 Brady has on 04 Peyton is just volume. Peyton threw 49 touchdowns in 497 passes, Brady threw 50 in 578 and Peyton sat out a ton of games in the fourth while NE was running up the score in 2007.  Peyton's Any/a was full point higher the Brady's that year. 

Brady was benched several 4th quarters in 2007 lol. 

[CP3MVP]

On 2/19/2024 at 8:25 AM, AngusMcFife said:

Brady didn't elevate himself above his peers. Kinda hard to say Brady had 3 HOF careers when he only had 3 All Pros. Rice had 10 1st team All Pros. Rice was far and away the best WR during his career, while Brady was about as good as Manning, Rodgers, Brees, and Mahomes. Brady was rarely appreciably better than his peers.

2001-2006 is a HOF Career

2007-2014 is a HOF career

2015-2021 is a HOF career 

 

Tom Brady’s competition at QB was much better than Rice’s competition at WR