***SPOILERS*** Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi SPOILER Thread

[Deadpulse]

32 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

It's not about that, it's about the preaching.  Terminator 2 wasn't preaching female empowerment, it just had a great female character.  Alien and Aliens didn't preach female empowerment, they just had a badass female character.  Being preachy about it just takes all the piss out of everything.  The original trilogy kept it good versus evil and is one of the greatest, most flawless fantasy stories ever told.  If there's one complaint I have about the new Star Wars, it's that it's so damn preachy it's a turnoff. 

Her role doesn't matter, but if she's built up to be a female empowerment figure in a series literally with a female lead who is preached up as a strong female figure in a series that has perhaps the most iconic female hero of all film (Leia), it deserves ridicule. 

Im not sure the "preaching" is really relevant. Clearly it bothers you, but Im not sure why. Touting a powerful female character is really just marketing. Can it sometimes seem like they are shoving it down our throats? Sure, but no more than any other marketing strategy. The problem is that this selling point in particular gets politicized and gets viewed differently then, lets say, a prolific director and their past accomplishments. 

 

Also, not sure the why the amount of strong female characters matters either. Because they already have Leia and she is beyond prolific, thats enough? Guess they should have cut Han, they already had one of the greatest male heroes of all time in Luke, cant believe they force fed us another in Han... 

 

Side note: I am already skirting the boundries of forum law here, in responses to my post, lets try hard to keep it about the movie. If you want to come @ me, feel free to PM 

[Calvert28]

1 hour ago, Deadpulse said:

What a stupid thing to complain about. Even if she is a woman in a command role, who cares? It doesnt matter at all what role she plays because she is good at what she does. 

Yea because Holdo was just all about being a great character. It has nothing to do with her being a woman. What you just spouted sounds like Disney regurgitated nonsense that if anyone has a problem with the character that it must be bigotry and ignoring the fact that the character sucks. Like what Holdo did couldnt have been done by Admiral Ackbar and just give him a fitting finish. No she was there because it was supposed to be preaching. There was literally no point to her character in that story other then to die a heroic death. 

Read up on the complaints about the character. For every strong independent female character Disney creates in the Star Wars universe that's actually good like Jyn Erso. They have like half a dozen others that suck and are more so just there to fill a role rather then be one Rose, Holdo, that dumb*** droid from Solo, etc. Hell even Rey has been wasted up until this point being a Mary Sue. 

There is a legit gripe with how just about all the characters have been handled. How this whole franchise has been handled. Until I'm proven wrong. I think the worry over how Keri is used is very much warranted. 

Go ahead tell me Rose was a great character. I'm need a great laugh today. 

[Heinz D.]

8 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

There is a legit gripe with how just about all the characters have been handled. How this whole franchise has been handled. Until I'm proven wrong. I think the worry over how Keri is used is very much warranted. 

Go ahead tell me Rose was a great character. I'm need a great laugh today. 

It's impossible for you to be "proven wrong" on those various points you bring up, as you're detailing an opinion that you, and a specific group, have decided to hold dear, and as such it can't ever truly be wrong or right.

And Rose was just fine. The plot she was involved with took a needless sidetrack, so she wasn't as fleshed out as I'd like, but she was cool. Not really what you were hoping for, I know, but although you probably didn't get a "great laugh" out of that, maybe you got a good chuckle? 

[Deadpulse]

1 hour ago, Calvert28 said:

Yea because Holdo was just all about being a great character. It has nothing to do with her being a woman. What you just spouted sounds like Disney regurgitated nonsense that if anyone has a problem with the character that it must be bigotry and ignoring the fact that the character sucks. Like what Holdo did couldnt have been done by Admiral Ackbar and just give him a fitting finish. No she was there because it was supposed to be preaching. There was literally no point to her character in that story other then to die a heroic death. 

Read up on the complaints about the character. For every strong independent female character Disney creates in the Star Wars universe that's actually good like Jyn Erso. They have like half a dozen others that suck and are more so just there to fill a role rather then be one Rose, Holdo, that dumb*** droid from Solo, etc. Hell even Rey has been wasted up until this point being a Mary Sue. 

There is a legit gripe with how just about all the characters have been handled. How this whole franchise has been handled. Until I'm proven wrong. I think the worry over how Keri is used is very much warranted. 

Go ahead tell me Rose was a great character. I'm need a great laugh today. 

So if Holdo was a man, same complaint? This character serves no purpose other than to die a heroic death? Or would we just not be having this conversation?

 

Because that character serves a very important purpose IMO. Poe needed someone in command that he didnt know/respect. The big reason why Leia was put out of commish and there were no other legends from the old rebellion to take her place was to help Poe along his character development. If its Ackbar, like you say, Poe in all likelihood trusts his plan without any push back because he is Admiral fricking Ackbar and he has more than earned that clout. However, since it is someone Poe doesnt know, someone he thinks he knows better than (watch him about to get up before Holdo is announced), he can move along his character development to learn to be a leader. His arc in the movie is to get from point A; wasting a lot of lives for very little in the bombing attack on the destroyer - to point B: realizing their best play when charging at the door buster is to fall back because too many were dying and then try to escape. Holdo is a HUGE part of that journey. 

[Malfatron]

6 hours ago, Acgott said:

 

dammit i read that as kurt russell at first

[Calvert28]

2 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

It's impossible for you to be "proven wrong" on those various points you bring up, as you're detailing an opinion that you, and a specific group, have decided to hold dear, and as such it can't ever truly be wrong or right.

You're right. Nothing concrete can support the claim, detail by detail. But the fact the last 2 movies have done poorly. TLJ failing to meet expectations, and Solo who even surprised me as being an outright bomb can. No one has complained about the action scenes, the ship battles, the CGI, everything on the surface was done terrifically. The problems with us naysayers has been the characters and the story. When the vast majority of complaints center around those things and the movies did poorly. There is truth to the gripes and it's more then just haters gonna hate or bigotry.

2 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

And Rose was just fine. The plot she was involved with took a needless sidetrack, so she wasn't as fleshed out as I'd like, but she was cool. Not really what you were hoping for, I know, but although you probably didn't get a "great laugh" out of that, maybe you got a good chuckle? 

Shame on you.

[Calvert28]

1 hour ago, Deadpulse said:

So if Holdo was a man, same complaint? This character serves no purpose other than to die a heroic death? Or would we just not be having this conversation?

You mean if it was Ackbar a male character doing nothing in this movie except to die a heroic death? Absolutely not. No gripe what so ever. And see that is just more of your I must be a bigot argument because I didn't like her. Tell me what role did she fill that Ackbar could not have? What did she do that was so unique besides dye her hair that they could not have passed on that role to him?

1 hour ago, Deadpulse said:

Because that character serves a very important purpose IMO. Poe needed someone in command that he didnt know/respect. The big reason why Leia was put out of commish and there were no other legends from the old rebellion to take her place was to help Poe along his character development. If its Ackbar, like you say, Poe in all likelihood trusts his plan without any push back because he is Admiral fricking Ackbar and he has more than earned that clout. However, since it is someone Poe doesnt know, someone he thinks he knows better than (watch him about to get up before Holdo is announced), he can move along his character development to learn to be a leader. His arc in the movie is to get from point A; wasting a lot of lives for very little in the bombing attack on the destroyer - to point B: realizing their best play when charging at the door buster is to fall back because too many were dying and then try to escape. Holdo is a HUGE part of that journey. 

No, no she really doesn't.

And really? You sure Poe would trust would trust Ackbar just like that? Poe didn't even listen to Leia as you pointed out later in that paragraph. He wouldn't listen to anyone, which means Ackbar would have fit just fine.

Holdo is just another Disney propaganda character that serves no purpose other then to preach a message. Great characters have character flaws. They don't have all the answers, they make mistakes, they have obstacles that make their mission difficult, they have a redemption arc. Holdo like some others just seems to have all the answers, she doesn't have any flaws with her planning, she doesn't have to make up for a poor choice. And everyone should just listen to her and not question her because she has a plan. It's just plain dumb.

Oh we're running out of fuel? We'll send them to that nearby planet that's like the only one around, cause the FO would never think to look for survivors after the ship blows up. Oh they figured out our plan? That's ok I can just hop on the pilot and ram this ship right into that enemy fleet and poof! Everything is better. Leia made mistakes, Luke made mistakes, Han made them all the time and still just slipped by. And we love these characters because not only are they not perfect, we can actually relate and root for them because they make up for their shortcomings with redemption arcs.

She served no unique purpose that just couldn't be filled by another character standing around on that bridge. Same with Rose. At least the droid had somewhat of a purpose to the story and the overall series.

[seminoles1]

So they were worthless because they didn't do anything a man couldn't do...got it.

[Heinz D.]

58 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

But the fact the last 2 movies have done poorly. TLJ failing to meet expectations, and Solo who even surprised me as being an outright bomb can. No one has complained about the action scenes, the ship battles, the CGI, everything on the surface was done terrifically. The problems with us naysayers has been the characters and the story. When the vast majority of complaints center around those things and the movies did poorly. There is truth to the gripes and it's more then just haters gonna hate or bigotry.

I have issues with TLJ myself. I feel it's a very good film that should have been a great one. I'm not defending the film as perfect. I may even go into my problems with it if I feel it's productive and entertaining. I've seen others with issues with the film that have a similar view on things as I do. My brother has tons of problems with it, but the genders of the characters have nothing to do with any of them.

That doesn't change the fact that a huge chunk of the criticism leveled at the thing IS filled with hate and bigotry. 

I have no idea why Solo bombed (relatively speaking). It was a good film, as well. I think it must be blockbuster fatigue. 

41 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Holdo is just another Disney propaganda character that serves no purpose other then to preach a message. 

What is that message? 

[Calvert28]

1 hour ago, seminoles1 said:

So they were worthless because they didn't do anything a man couldn't do...got it.

The only message she served is that they can do anything a man can do and do it better. That's more sexist then anything. Leia proved in the original series that she was every bit if not more capable then both Han and Luke in many ways. 

But at least she was a fantastic and memorable character. As @Deadpulse pointed out earlier most of this is just a marketing ploy anyways. What's irritating is that even with the preaching none of these characters really serve a unique purpose. They are just there to serve that propaganda, they make it so obvious too that the story itself even gets over shadowed a bit. It's just sad. 

[Calvert28]

1 hour ago, Heinz D. said:

I have issues with TLJ myself. I feel it's a very good film that should have been a great one. I'm not defending the film as perfect. I may even go into my problems with it if I feel it's productive and entertaining. I've seen others with issues with the film that have a similar view on things as I do. My brother has tons of problems with it, but the genders of the characters have nothing to do with any of them.

Any time you have politics to force a message there is a problem with the film. The gender of the characters would be no problem at all if the characters were actually good. Except they weren't, they were forced, with forced messages. Holdo's entire spat with Poe by most people looking at it agree that if Holdo had just shared that plan with Poe everything would go fine. He thought it was a great plan when Leia told him. So why wasnt he told? The best and most loyal rebel the resistance had? Because he just needed to follow orders and trust her. It makes no sense. It would have been better had she just told him and he just disagreed with it because of tactical issues or something. Instead of this moral of the story, always trust female superiors because they always have the answers. 

1 hour ago, Heinz D. said:

That doesn't change the fact that a huge chunk of the criticism leveled at the thing IS filled with hate and bigotry. 

I'm sure there is bigotry with others. But the "huge chunk" comment is nothing more then a guess, and frankly biased guess due to propaganda idea that if you dont support the movie, then you must be a bigot. 

1 hour ago, Heinz D. said:

I have no idea why Solo bombed (relatively speaking). It was a good film, as well. I think it must be blockbuster fatigue. 

 

Yea I think Deadpool 2 and Incredibles 2 disproved that fatigue argument put out by bought journalists. Most especially the Marvel Universe that puts out Superhero movies far more so then Star Wars and hasn't suffered any fatigue what so ever. 

[Heinz D.]

18 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

The only message she served is that they can do anything a man can do and do it better. That's more sexist then anything. Leia proved in the original series that she was every bit if not more capable then both Han and Luke in many ways. 

But at least she was a fantastic and memorable character. As @Deadpulse pointed out earlier most of this is just a marketing ploy anyways. What's irritating is that even with the preaching none of these characters really serve a unique purpose. They are just there to serve that propaganda, they make it so obvious too that the story itself even gets over shadowed a bit. It's just sad. 

Holdo's main contributions to the flow of the plot, as far as her actions go anyway, were her secret plan (and duplicitous scheming to cover it up) and her well executed kamikaze attack on the First Order fleet. How is that showing that she can do anything a man can do, and do it better? You lost me there. Explain? 

Also--what's the preaching you (yet again) refer to? And "propaganda" usually refers to something (or an agenda of things) with little attachment to the truth that is used to advance a specific political goal. What is Disney's propaganda fueled plan?

[Calvert28]

10 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

What is Disney's propaganda fueled plan?

Like seriously? I know I brought this up earlier in the thread. did you not notice that all the major villains thus far have been white Male leads in every new Star Wars movie thus far? The only exception being Daarth Maul and that was only a brief cameo appearance. It's to spread tension and hate against a particular group. Like how all the heroes have been of a minority group. The only one they couldnt get around was Han himself in Solo. 

[Heinz D.]

7 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Any time you have politics to force a message there is a problem with the film. The gender of the characters would be no problem at all if the characters were actually good. Except they weren't, they were forced, with forced messages. Holdo's entire spat with Poe by most people looking at it agree that if Holdo had just shared that plan with Poe everything would go fine. He thought it was a great plan when Leia told him. So why wasnt he told? The best and most loyal rebel the resistance had? Because he just needed to follow orders and trust her. It makes no sense. It would have been better had she just told him and he just disagreed with it because of tactical issues or something. Instead of this moral of the story, always trust female superiors because they always have the answers. 

That's an enormous, and illogical, leap there. No one was told about Holdo and Leia's plan because the kamikaze maneuver had to remain an absolute secret from both the good guys and bad guys. Was that aspect written all that well? Umm...no. It wasn't. 

As to the "propaganda idea that if you don't support the film, you must be a bigot"...that's all kind of wrong, really, and one only needs to view the criticism of TLJ (overall) to pick up on that.

It's interesting you mention "politics" in your first sentence there. Not because of any points you're trying to make, but because I think a lot of the frenzy surrounding the entire contoversy (if it can be called that) is because of the political undertone of both of the new episodes. TFA got a pass from these particular corners we're talking about because it was shiny and new, and the actual, real political movement we're experiencing in the country now wasn't fully underway. The prequels are pretty blatantly political, too, but folks are always dismissive of them overall, so it's almost like they don't count.

But...Star Wars has, from the start, always been a highly politically charged (for lack of a better term, in the current context) beast of an action film franchise. If people want to think that it didn't draw its initial energy from the 1960's, or its initial antagonist's basis from something other than Nixon, then they're fooling themselves. 

Frankly, I think people should just enjoy the things as best they can, and stop reading so much into...everything. 

[Deadpulse]

23 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

So why wasnt he told? The best and most loyal rebel the resistance had? Because he just needed to follow orders and trust her. It makes no sense. It would have been better had she just told him and he just disagreed with it because of tactical issues or something. Instead of this moral of the story, always trust female superiors because they always have the answers. 

He wasn't told because he literally just disobeyed a direct order from Leia which wound up costing a LOT of lives and was subsequently demoted. The question you should be asking isnt, why wasn't he told about the plan, it should be why wasn't he thrown in the brig immediately. It's not like he was the only one not told, considering he had co-conspirators in a MUTINY (for real, how is this guy not imprisoned?) Clearly the top brass thought the plan should be need to know. 

Also, thats not the moral of the story. The moral is lives matter more than wins do. Poe is trying to win the entire time, and Holdo is trying to save lives. THATS THE POINT AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER GENDER.