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'TRENCH WARFARE' (A CAM SUTTON-LESS MOCK)


Karnage84

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Joey Bosa is not going to be a Lion (no skin off @Sllim Pickens back) so here's a revised version. 

Update 1: Kevin Zeiter is coming (Zeitler kommt > according to Google translate), so here we go again. 

Update 2: Cam Sutton has a warrant out for his arrest. This arguably makes the signing of another CB (like Gilmore) even more likely. 

SIGNINGS/MOVES

  • OG Graham Glasgow re-signed
  • OT Dan Skipper re-signed
  • CB Emanuel Moseley re-signed
  • CB Carlton Davis (trade)
  • Edge Marcus Davenport
  • CB Amik Robertson signed
  • NT DJ Reader (he's visiting today and assuming he signs)
  • OG Kevin Zeitler - 1 Year
  • Cut CB Cam Sutton ($2.5M cap hit; void guaranteed money of $10M+)
  • CB Stephon Gilmore (we're rumoured to be the top landing spot) - 1 Year $9.5M

Reader is a coup and instantly boosts our DL in a big way. Brodric Martin has an opportunity to develop and play a rotational role. Gilmore signs to play with his brother in a starting role on a Super Bowl-caliber team. Adding Gilmore and Davis helps to solidify our WCB starting position while the re-signing of Moseley and the addition of Robertson adds depth and versatility. The Lions want to utilize Branch as a playmaker and having a versatile player like Robertson allows them to move Branch around. Davenport and Danna are brought in to upgrade the spots that the Okwara's and Charles Harris were in. 

CURRENT NEEDS

Brad Holmes has done a great job at minimizing our immediate needs and allowing us to focus on adding BPA in the draft. 

  • X-WR: The Lions are going to rely on Jameson Williams to take the next step up while St. Brown, Gibbs, and LaPorta are all big-time weapons. The Lions do lack a legitimate big body in the X position and it would take this offense to the next level. DPJ and Green are capable WR4/5's that can develop. 
  • CB: Just like with the DE position, Holmes has been able to upgrade the talent for 2024 over 2023 but they're temporary fixes. The Cameron Sutton situation will have some impact on the Lions draft but I don't believe it will drastically alter the plan. All of the depth should allow for some patience and adding a prospect that has time to develop. 

FUTURE NEEDS

  • LT: Decker is no spring chicken and we need to find his replacement eventually. Penei Sewell arguably could be that guy and therefore we'd need a ready-made RT to slide in and take his spot
  • OG: Jonah Jackson signed a big deal with the Rams and OG's are making close to WR money. Adding to the OL and keeping it a strength is important for future team success. Zeitler should stick at RG for this season with Glasgow now sticking at LG.
  • OC: Frank Ragnow is also not going to be here forever. The Lions must have had to consider a potential retirement this off-season. Now this can be pushed off another year as an immediate need. Adding Ragnow's replacement should be considered a high priority. 
  • DE: Having someone opposite of Hutchinson long-term should be a part of Holmes' plan. The additions of Davenport and Danna provide upside short-term upgrades over the Okwara's and Charles Harris. John Cominsky is in line to be upgraded and Josh Paschal hasn't been able to consistently produce. 
  • ILB: Anzalone is going to have a heftier cap hit ($7.4M) while Derrick Barnes is a UFA in 2025. Jack Campbell should be competing for one of the two starting gigs in 2024/2025. Holmes could look to add someone to the room to give some flexibility next off-season
  • S: We've seen both the progression and regression of the Lions' current S room. Tracy Walker was cut and Gardner-Johnson was not brought back. I suspect that the Lions will roll with the combination of Melifonwu and Kerby as their starters under new DB coach DeShea Townsend. Holmes feels he has an eye for DB play from his time in LA and could look to add another developmental player at the position

OFFENSE

  • LT - Decker, Skipper
  • LG - Glasgow, Awosika
  • OC - Ragnow
  • RG - Zeitler
  • RT - Sewell, 
  • QB - Goff, Hooker
  • LWR - Peoples-Jones, Green
  • SWR -St Brown, Raymond
  • RWR - J. Williams
  • TE - LaPorta, Wright, Mitchell
  • RB - Gibbs, Montgomery, Reynolds

DEFENSE

  • REO - Davenport, Danna
  • DE - Cominsky, Paschal
  • DT - McNeill
  • NT -Reader, Martin
  • RUSH - Hutchinson, Houston, Betts
  • ILB - Campbell, Barnes
  • ILB - Anzalone, Rodriguez
  • LCB - Gilmore, Moseley, Dorsey
  • SCB - Branch, Robertson
  • RCB - Davis, 
  • FS - K.Joseph, B. Joseph
  • SS - Melifonwu
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DRAFT

  • Pick #29: Darius Robinson, DE, Missouri
  • Pick #61: Marshawn Kneeland, EDGE, Western Michigan
  • Trade pick #73 to Pittsburgh for pick #84 and #119
  • Pick #84: Patrick Paul, OT/OG, Houston
  • Pick #119: Cooper Beebe, OG/OC, Kansas State
  • Pick #164: Josh Wallace, CB, Michigan
  • Pick #201: Evan Anderson, NT, Florida Atlantic
  • Pick #205: Qwan'tez Stiggers, CB, Toronto (CFL)
  • Pick #249: Kitan Oladapo, S, Oregon State
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Nice!  You even got Qunat'Tez Stiggers a spot in your Mock.  From a recent article:

"Stiggers posted a 36.5 vertical, 10'8 broad and a 4.45 in the 40-yard dash. The 5-foot-11, 204-pound cornerback left a strong impression on the NFL reps in attendance."

https://www.si.com/cfl/fannation/news/qwantez-stiggers-pro-day-cfl-star-nfl-draft

Edited by Just Want A Title
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OFFENSE

  • LT - Decker, Paul, Skipper
  • LG - Glasgow, Awosika
  • OC - Ragnow
  • RG - Zeitler, Beebe
  • RT - Sewell, Sorsdal
  • QB - Goff, Hooker
  • LWR - Peoples-Jones, Green
  • SWR -St Brown, Raymond
  • RWR - J. Williams
  • TE - LaPorta, Wright, Mitchell
  • RB - Gibbs, Montgomery, Reynolds

 

DEFENSE

  • REO - Davenport, Danna,
  • DE - Cominsky, RobinsonKneeland,Paschal
  • DT - McNeill, Anderson
  • NT -Reader, Martin
  • RUSH - Hutchinson, Houston, Betts
  • ILB - Campbell, Barnes
  • ILB - Anzalone, Rodriguez
  • LCB - GilmoreJ. Wallace, Dorsey
  • SCB - Branch, Robertson
  • RCB - Davis, Moseley, Stiggers
  • FS - K.Joseph, B. Joseph
  • SS - Melifonwu, Oladapo
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12 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

DRAFT

  • Pick #29: Darius Robinson, DE, Missouri
  • Pick #61: Marshawn Kneeland, EDGE, Western Michigan
  • Trade pick #73 to Pittsburgh for pick #84 and #119
  • Pick #84: Patrick Paul, OT/OG, Houston
  • Pick #119: Cooper Beebe, OG/OC, Kansas State
  • Pick #164: Josh Wallace, CB, Michigan
  • Pick #201: Evan Anderson, NT, Florida Atlantic
  • Pick #205: Qwan'tez Stiggers, CB, Toronto (CFL)
  • Pick #249: Kitan Oladapo, S, Oregon State

Some folks would be surprised to see Beebe fall like that but with a draft that is so top-heavy at QB, OT, WR and CB it might turn into a numbers game.

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10 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Pick #29: Darius Robinson, DE, Missouri

Robinson is a high-motor power rusher. He has ridiculous size at 6'5, 285 lbs with 34 1/2 arms. He offers a little bit more size than John Cominsky. Robinson should be a high-floor player with the potential to be a Cam Jordan/Cam Heyward type down the road. He can play 5T and then slide inside on passing downs. He is a high-character person and should fit in well in the locker room. He's going to be given the Jahmyr Gibbs treatment as he'll be brought along slowly with a veteran like John Cominsky still on the roster. We should see Robinson take over the starting role in 2025.

17 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Pick #61: Marshawn Kneeland, EDGE, Western Michigan

The additions of Davenport, Danna, Robinson AND Kneeland seem like overkill. However, this is a pick with the present and future in mind. Davenport and Danna are short-term deals. Robinson should be in line for the Cominsky role. Josh Paschal has struggled to stay healthy. Kneeland matches up really well with Paschal and could take over his spot if JP still struggles. If not, they can be worked in a rotation. 

 

20 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Pick #84: Patrick Paul, OT/OG, Houston

Paul has all of the tools to be a potential LT or a really good OG. He's a monster of a man at 6'7, 331 lbs with 36 inch arms. He's generally tested pretty well. He potentially could beat out Glasgow to play LG this season. 

22 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Pick #119: Cooper Beebe, OG/OC, Kansas State

Beebe has tested pretty well overall. However, he has really short arms (31.5) and could be moved inside. He'll compete with Awosika and Sorsdal as a backup OG this season. He could be the heir to Frank Ragnow. 

 

25 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Pick #164: Josh Wallace, CB, Michigan

Wallace is a guy that should be rising in the process. He's a great fit for what the Lions want to do and he won't be forced into major snaps, allowing him to develop. With guys like Gilmore and Moseley on short-term deals, Wallace could be a major contributor in the future. 

27 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Pick #201: Evan Anderson, NT, Florida Atlantic

Anderson is a decent sized DL prospect. He's been good against the run and offers a little bit as a pass-rusher. We've lost guys like Buggs and Benito Jones as depth with starts under their belts. However, the addition of Reader pushes this down as a bigger need. Brodric Martin is also a developmental project that could show something this year. 

 

32 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Pick #205: Qwan'tez Stiggers, CB, Toronto (CFL)

Stiggers is a draftable prospect but this is roughly where he should go. He is coming straight off the Fan Controlled Football League and won the CFL's rookie of the year. That's 1-2 years of organized football beyond High School. He's a great story and he's tested well. He's already performed as a professional but the NFL is a whole different level. 

35 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Pick #249: Kitan Oladapo, S, Oregon State

The Lions need some help and depth at safety. Oladapo offers great size and has tested pretty well. I can see Branch getting looks in a variety of spots and having someone like Oladapo on the roster could help. 

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23 minutes ago, Just Want A Title said:

Some folks would be surprised to see Beebe fall like that but with a draft that is so top-heavy at QB, OT, WR and CB it might turn into a numbers game.

His current ADP is 58. However, I do believe that a few things could lead to him dropping

- Short Arms

- Position shift (he's played everywhere but OC)

- Top-heavy offensive draft (QB's, WR's, true OT's)

- Really good defensive players then sliding down the board

- Deep OL draft

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Love the detail as usual great work and effort.  
 

Few things before the draft.

Is Danna Mike Danna?  He resigned with the Chiefs.  
 

You’ve been claiming threw out the entire FA process that we are considered the favorite for Gilmore.  I don’t believe this is this case and it doesn’t really seem to be backed up at all.  I’m sure you read it somewhere but I don’t think to many insiders consider the Lions the favorite to land him.  
 

Don’t love the first 2 picks at all.  Both players being similar aside.  I do think they fit the mold of what they want in a sde ie more of a 5tech than rolling out 2 edge rushers but I don’t love the talent compared to what’s I see being available.  I’d take Beebe at 61 all day.  I loved Robinson at the senior bowl but he keeps falling down my board the more I watch him.  He can really get stuck on blocks when he doesn’t win with his initial punch.  In hindsight I think he took advantage of a lot of guys with bad technic and balance at the sb and they were not ready for him.   Watching him against Ohio State he looked like a 4th rounder.  Kneeland isn’t so much a bad pick I just don’t see an nfl difference maker in him.  He’s like another Cominsky.  I don’t know that the team see’s DE as much of a need as the fan base does.  I think they like there guys and they have depth. It’s kind of difference maker or nothing situation.  They don’t need another depth guy.  I would absolutely love Chop, even if we had to trade up a few spots but I’m just not confident he’s the mold they are looking for.  Hopefully I’m wrong.  
 

Grabbing Paul and Beebe there would be excellent but even if all he’ll broke lose and yeah some unexpected guys always fall, there’s just no way Beebe falls that far.  He’s more likely to go higher than expected than fall out of the 2nd imo 

 

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2 hours ago, BigC421/ said:

Love the detail as usual great work and effort.  
 

Few things before the draft.

Is Danna Mike Danna?  He resigned with the Chiefs.  
 

You’ve been claiming threw out the entire FA process that we are considered the favorite for Gilmore.  I don’t believe this is this case and it doesn’t really seem to be backed up at all.  I’m sure you read it somewhere but I don’t think to many insiders consider the Lions the favorite to land him.  
 

Don’t love the first 2 picks at all.  Both players being similar aside.  I do think they fit the mold of what they want in a sde ie more of a 5tech than rolling out 2 edge rushers but I don’t love the talent compared to what’s I see being available.  I’d take Beebe at 61 all day.  I loved Robinson at the senior bowl but he keeps falling down my board the more I watch him.  He can really get stuck on blocks when he doesn’t win with his initial punch.  In hindsight I think he took advantage of a lot of guys with bad technic and balance at the sb and they were not ready for him.   Watching him against Ohio State he looked like a 4th rounder.  Kneeland isn’t so much a bad pick I just don’t see an nfl difference maker in him.  He’s like another Cominsky.  I don’t know that the team see’s DE as much of a need as the fan base does.  I think they like there guys and they have depth. It’s kind of difference maker or nothing situation.  They don’t need another depth guy.  I would absolutely love Chop, even if we had to trade up a few spots but I’m just not confident he’s the mold they are looking for.  Hopefully I’m wrong.  
 

Grabbing Paul and Beebe there would be excellent but even if all he’ll broke lose and yeah some unexpected guys always fall, there’s just no way Beebe falls that far.  He’s more likely to go higher than expected than fall out of the 2nd imo 

 

  • Danna: This was pre-Back with the Chiefs Mike Danna.
  • Gilmore: I'm farm from the only one that has predicted Gilmore to the Lions. He fits the scheme, we have the cap space and his brother is on the roster. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/lions/news/stephon-gilmore-predicted-lions-biggest-signing

https://heavy.com/sports/detroit-lions/lions-landing-spot-stephon-gilmore/

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/lions-stephon-gilmore-nfl-free-agency/ee22af86a70ec47f2e820bd6

Robinson and Kneeland aren't the same player at all. 

Robinson would be the heir apparent to John Cominsky and take a bunch of his snaps. 

Kneeland would be a blend of Paschal and Charles Harris. He's a lot lighter than Robinson (288 vs 267) and played a ton of snaps standing up as opposed to putting his hand in the dirt. Kneeland is much closer to Davenport and what he offers, which is on a 1 year deal. 

There are question marks on this edge class. I don't know if we're going to find a Nightwing to Hutchinson's Batman but we could find a couple Robin's with some upside to provide him and Alim more support. 

I think Chop is going to be an absolute bust. Sack production (or lack of) tends to follow guys into the league. He's super athletic but unproductive and he's undersized for a significant/every down role. He doesn't have the size to play the Paschal role. So he then becomes a situational rusher on passing downs. 

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1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:
  • Danna: This was pre-Back with the Chiefs Mike Danna.
  • Gilmore: I'm farm from the only one that has predicted Gilmore to the Lions. He fits the scheme, we have the cap space and his brother is on the roster. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/lions/news/stephon-gilmore-predicted-lions-biggest-signing

https://heavy.com/sports/detroit-lions/lions-landing-spot-stephon-gilmore/

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/lions-stephon-gilmore-nfl-free-agency/ee22af86a70ec47f2e820bd6

Robinson and Kneeland aren't the same player at all. 

Robinson would be the heir apparent to John Cominsky and take a bunch of his snaps. 

Kneeland would be a blend of Paschal and Charles Harris. He's a lot lighter than Robinson (288 vs 267) and played a ton of snaps standing up as opposed to putting his hand in the dirt. Kneeland is much closer to Davenport and what he offers, which is on a 1 year deal. 

There are question marks on this edge class. I don't know if we're going to find a Nightwing to Hutchinson's Batman but we could find a couple Robin's with some upside to provide him and Alim more support. 

I think Chop is going to be an absolute bust. Sack production (or lack of) tends to follow guys into the league. He's super athletic but unproductive and he's undersized for a significant/every down role. He doesn't have the size to play the Paschal role. So he then becomes a situational rusher on passing downs. 

Chop Robinson might be better off learning how to become a WLB.  For teams that run a 4-3 his speed at OLB could be really disruptive.  He could still provide a complimentary pass-rush on blitzes but he needs to be an off-the ball LB to succeed.

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1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:
  • Danna: This was pre-Back with the Chiefs Mike Danna.
  • Gilmore: I'm farm from the only one that has predicted Gilmore to the Lions. He fits the scheme, we have the cap space and his brother is on the roster. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/lions/news/stephon-gilmore-predicted-lions-biggest-signing

https://heavy.com/sports/detroit-lions/lions-landing-spot-stephon-gilmore/

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/lions-stephon-gilmore-nfl-free-agency/ee22af86a70ec47f2e820bd6

Robinson and Kneeland aren't the same player at all. 

Robinson would be the heir apparent to John Cominsky and take a bunch of his snaps. 

Kneeland would be a blend of Paschal and Charles Harris. He's a lot lighter than Robinson (288 vs 267) and played a ton of snaps standing up as opposed to putting his hand in the dirt. Kneeland is much closer to Davenport and what he offers, which is on a 1 year deal. 

There are question marks on this edge class. I don't know if we're going to find a Nightwing to Hutchinson's Batman but we could find a couple Robin's with some upside to provide him and Alim more support. 

I think Chop is going to be an absolute bust. Sack production (or lack of) tends to follow guys into the league. He's super athletic but unproductive and he's undersized for a significant/every down role. He doesn't have the size to play the Paschal role. So he then becomes a situational rusher on passing downs. 

Not to nitpick but non of those links claim the Lions are the favorite or even interested in Gilmore.  They are just journalists saying it would make sense.  I’d be all for signing him or Howard fyi. I’ve just been confused why you keep claiming the Lions are the “Favorite’s” to sign him. 
 

Yes I agree DR and Kneeland are different players but I think the Lions would be looking at both to play primarily SDE opposite Hutch (although I’m not completely sold Robinson isn’t better off putting on 15-20 pounds and moving inside permanently. I don’t think he improved due to moving him outside I think he just improved)  I don’t really see a need to use high draft picks on edge players that won’t provide a substantial improvement in pass rush.  
 

A lot of people aren’t sold on Chop to which I say whatever.  He has a lightning  quick first step and great bend on the corner with enough strength and low level of gravity to cut it off and not over run the pocket.  His great first step and arm rip strength gives him a good inside rush when he uses it as well.  You can talk about sack production all you want but when you watch him play all he does is whoop tackles for 4 qters.  He likely gets a few sacks against Michigan if not for the game plan the way he was destroying Barnhart.  He went out early against OSU after dominating early and missed another 2 games after that.  Even when you watch just his highlights it’s not a bunch of sacks/tackles where he’s coming off uncovered or beating te’s he is whooping tackles both inside and out.  There’s a lot to like.  Daniele Hunter only had 4 sacks in college.  Gary never had more than 5.5 (3.5 his last year) and Parsons only had 5 so it isn’t unprecedented.  

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2 hours ago, BigC421/ said:

Not to nitpick but non of those links claim the Lions are the favorite or even interested in Gilmore.  They are just journalists saying it would make sense.  I’d be all for signing him or Howard fyi. I’ve just been confused why you keep claiming the Lions are the “Favorite’s” to sign him. 
 

Yes I agree DR and Kneeland are different players but I think the Lions would be looking at both to play primarily SDE opposite Hutch (although I’m not completely sold Robinson isn’t better off putting on 15-20 pounds and moving inside permanently. I don’t think he improved due to moving him outside I think he just improved)  I don’t really see a need to use high draft picks on edge players that won’t provide a substantial improvement in pass rush.  
 

A lot of people aren’t sold on Chop to which I say whatever.  He has a lightning  quick first step and great bend on the corner with enough strength and low level of gravity to cut it off and not over run the pocket.  His great first step and arm rip strength gives him a good inside rush when he uses it as well.  You can talk about sack production all you want but when you watch him play all he does is whoop tackles for 4 qters.  He likely gets a few sacks against Michigan if not for the game plan the way he was destroying Barnhart.  He went out early against OSU after dominating early and missed another 2 games after that.  Even when you watch just his highlights it’s not a bunch of sacks/tackles where he’s coming off uncovered or beating te’s he is whooping tackles both inside and out.  There’s a lot to like.  Daniele Hunter only had 4 sacks in college.  Gary never had more than 5.5 (3.5 his last year) and Parsons only had 5 so it isn’t unprecedented.  

Not to nitpick (instantly nitpicks) - lol (I'm just giving you a hard time)... You're not wrong. These aren't official reports or anything, just a few writers from known publications that have made the connection and referenced the 'Lions as the favourites'. The team is pretty tight lipped so I doubt we'd hear much on it until it was basically going to happen. However, I am convinced that he's a very strong possibility as a lot lines up. I suspect that he's waiting until after the draft to find his landing spot. The Lions themsleves have enough stuff to figure out leading up to and post-draft - the draft itself, being the host city (probably have some extra activities they have to participate in as a result), St. Brown and Goff extension talks. So there's a lot of reasons that this could be getting pushed off until after the draft. 

I wanted to pull out the Michigan game stats and compare against the rest of his season but PFF has been giving me login issues. I hear your points and you could be right. However, you're talking about a couple anomalies. I'm a bit more conservative as I'd rather hit a double than take an out with a 1st round pick. Chop could be a home run but I have my concerns and I just don't feel he's worth the risk there. 

We've seen the Lions double up on positions including when they drafted Hutch and Paschal back-to-back. Paschal has struggled with injuries and consistency. Cominsky is probably going the way of Romeo/Harris next year (hence the pay cut), so Robinson would provide insurance there with a future development plan. I expect them to move on from Levi this year and Robinson is sitting at 288 - so he could definitely cut into some of those snaps at 3T. 

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3 hours ago, Just Want A Title said:

Chop Robinson might be better off learning how to become a WLB.  For teams that run a 4-3 his speed at OLB could be really disruptive.  He could still provide a complimentary pass-rush on blitzes but he needs to be an off-the ball LB to succeed.

That could be an interesting move for us if he was to lose 5 lbs and sit around 250 lbs. The problem is that I've tried to watch him in coverage and I can't find him dropping back at all. 

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