Hard Knocks Offseason with the Giants

[Acgott]

2 hours ago, minutemancl said:

The more I think about it, the more this concerns me. If this regime doesn't work out, it's going to be because of Schoen's tentativeness, paying DJ, and poor OL evaluations.

You can’t just be a hard nose on every decision, it leaves no room for adjustments. Scheon stood on his offer for Saquon, he got more.

We don’t know what package we offered the Patriots and if they would even accept.

[minutemancl]

13 hours ago, Acgott said:

You can’t just be a hard nose on every decision, it leaves no room for adjustments. Scheon stood on his offer for Saquon, he got more.

We don’t know what package we offered the Patriots and if they would even accept.

We don't, but I think there is value in at least GIVING them an offer rather than a "hey, we're vaguely interested" heads up that apparently multiple teams gave them. Maybe I don't know the intricacies of the timeline for GMs, and maybe we did approach them with an actual offer later on, but Schoen comes off a little timid in his decision making.

Can't force another team to do business, but at least stand on yours.

[minutemancl]

Chase Daniel on twitter remarked that that QB combine interview scenes, specifically where Dabs recites plays in the Giants offensive language to the prospects and tests their recall, show that the Giants offense is 100% Dabs's this year. There is not a whiff of Andy Reid/Mike Kafka verbage in there, according to him. If it hasn't been confirmed by everything already, you can be sure that Dabs is calling plays and taking a more hands on role with the offense this year. And I think that is the right move. We see offensive minded head coaches across the league maintain play calling duties to varying levels of, but some great, success. With the struggles we had last year, Dabs should take over and do well what landed him his job in the first place.

[Acgott]

46 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

We don't, but I think there is value in at least GIVING them an offer rather than a "hey, we're vaguely interested" heads up that apparently multiple teams gave them. Maybe I don't know the intricacies of the timeline for GMs, and maybe we did approach them with an actual offer later on, but Schoen comes off a little timid in his decision making.

Can't force another team to do business, but at least stand on yours.

That was in early March, the draft is in late April. The reports we gave them an offer, which the Patriots declined around draft day. At this point in the timeline, we haven’t even met with any of the quarterbacks one one one.

[Acgott]

46 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

Chase Daniel on twitter remarked that that QB combine interview scenes, specifically where Dabs recites plays in the Giants offensive language to the prospects and tests their recall, show that the Giants offense is 100% Dabs's this year. There is not a whiff of Andy Reid/Mike Kafka verbage in there, according to him. If it hasn't been confirmed by everything already, you can be sure that Dabs is calling plays and taking a more hands on role with the offense this year. And I think that is the right move. We see offensive minded head coaches across the league maintain play calling duties to varying levels of, but some great, success. With the struggles we had last year, Dabs should take over and do well what landed him his job in the first place.

Jordan Raanan followed up saying it was a Daboll offense all along, just with Kafka running it. I agree Daboll should cook if we didn’t let Kafka shop for plays.

[Shockwave]

Maybe I've just watched too many movies like Moneyball but I was just kind of surprised by how off the cuff the process is. GM's just standing together on the sidelines throwing out hypothetical trade ideas... Schoen just walking over to the Patriots skybox and being like "Hey man... let's talk". Even the meetings with his advisors just seemed like casual football talk. I suppose they didn't want the more analytical processes and discussions shown on camera? Considering Gettlemans distain for "computer folks" I guess I kind of pictured Schoen to be surrounded by a team of Jonah Hills with laptops lol

[minutemancl]

1 hour ago, Shockwave said:

Maybe I've just watched too many movies like Moneyball but I was just kind of surprised by how off the cuff the process is. GM's just standing together on the sidelines throwing out hypothetical trade ideas... Schoen just walking over to the Patriots skybox and being like "Hey man... let's talk". Even the meetings with his advisors just seemed like casual football talk. I suppose they didn't want the more analytical processes and discussions shown on camera? Considering Gettlemans distain for "computer folks" I guess I kind of pictured Schoen to be surrounded by a team of Jonah Hills with laptops lol

We kind of do see Schoen surrounded by Jonah Hills though. Those are the montage scenes where everybody in the room is bringing up and talking about players, FA and in the draft. Those go on much, much longer than we see here though. Those are the results of the initial, data driven decisions. Then Schoen comes in and makes the final decision.

[Shockwave]

A few thoughts:

-So in the end even though the offer was never officially made Schoen seemed willing to go 25M guaranteed and Barkley essentially signed with the Eagles for 26M guaranteed. SB valued 1M over finishing his career with the Gmen and joining the ring of honor. 
-Kind of surprised how highly ranked the scouting department had Eluemunor. But I guess positional flexibility and familiarity with Bricillo was highly valued. I follow the dude on X and he is ecstatic to be a Giant. Have high hopes for this Oline. If Neal can take that next step... could be quite a solid unit.
-The bit of extra money they had to dish out to add Runyan basically took signing Hunt out of the picture but they were set on signing two and got it done. 
 

Absolutely cannot wait for episode 4. I want to see if/what was offered to NE or Was to move up. Daboll seemed totally onboard with trading up to get Daniels

[minutemancl]

I'm just about halfway through, but what I found to be most interesting this episode is what WASN'T shown or said.

After Schoen gets the numbers from Ed Berry of about what Saquon's value is, Schoen says "that may be above me" of if he can match that, and then calls Mara, but we don't hear much of that conversation. I'm reading between the lines here, but based on everything I know, I think that price was too high for what Schoen and co wanted to pay him. The "may be above me" was if Mara made the call to keep him at all costs and overrule what Schoen had decided. Obviously, Mara did not. After that, the Giants were out. They shifted focus to Motor and Burns and the OL guys.

What is said about Saquon is that Schoen and Mara both expressed, one more directly than the other, that they didn't want him to go to Philadelphia. The reason for that seems to be mainly about optics and media than on the field. The Giants already determined he wasn't worth as much as he got. Schoen had talked a lot about having to deal with the headache last year of answering Saquon questions when he played on the tag and was seeking a long term deal. Mara said "he's our most popular player by a lot". Regardless of how they perform, your most popular player going to a division rival is another type of headache to have to deal with. I think that was their main point there.

31 minutes ago, Shockwave said:

A few thoughts:

-So in the end even though the offer was never officially made Schoen seemed willing to go 25M guaranteed and Barkley essentially signed with the Eagles for 26M guaranteed. SB valued 1M over finishing his career with the Gmen and joining the ring of honor. 
-Kind of surprised how highly ranked the scouting department had Eluemunor. But I guess positional flexibility and familiarity with Bricillo was highly valued. I follow the dude on X and he is ecstatic to be a Giant. Have high hopes for this Oline. If Neal can take that next step... could be quite a solid unit.
-The bit of extra money they had to dish out to add Runyan basically took signing Hunt out of the picture but they were set on signing two and got it done. 

I don't think Schoen ever wanted to go to 25mil gtd for Saquon. I think the Giants determined they were out after getting his market value.

Schoen seems to trust his pro personnel department implicitly, and I think it is a good move given their track record so far. We've hit on big name free agents, like Bobby O, and we've hit on a few waiver wire guys, like Pinnock and McCloud. Eluemunor is a really good player.

[Shockwave]

I dunno the way I read that scene....Schoen threw the 25M GTD out there as one last ditch effort. Asking if it would get it done, then once Berry hemmed and hawed about it saying he's not sure and they'd have to work on it was the last straw. I think if Berry would have adamantly said yes Schoen is on the phone with Mara and the offer gets made. 1M GTD... 

[GMENNATION]

7 hours ago, Shockwave said:

I dunno the way I read that scene....Schoen threw the 25M GTD out there as one last ditch effort. Asking if it would get it done, then once Berry hemmed and hawed about it saying he's not sure and they'd have to work on it was the last straw. I think if Berry would have adamantly said yes Schoen is on the phone with Mara and the offer gets made. 1M GTD... 

I disagree.. I think everything Schoen said in that conversation was not real. He was just trying to get Berry to be specific so Schoen had as many facts as possible. His message back to Mara always would have been it's too much. Look at the names they mention at RB. That's the market Schoen wanted to be in. Everything else was handling the situation with care to let his owner down as easy as possible. Berry knew this too. That's why he didn't answer the question. He knew the Giants were never going to be near that number. Both sides knew the only way Barkley was back was if he effectively had no market. To suggest Barkley was leaving over $1M is simply not the case.

[Shockwave]

3 hours ago, GMENNATION said:

I disagree.. I think everything Schoen said in that conversation was not real. He was just trying to get Berry to be specific so Schoen had as many facts as possible. His message back to Mara always would have been it's too much. Look at the names they mention at RB. That's the market Schoen wanted to be in. Everything else was handling the situation with care to let his owner down as easy as possible. Berry knew this too. That's why he didn't answer the question. He knew the Giants were never going to be near that number. Both sides knew the only way Barkley was back was if he effectively had no market. To suggest Barkley was leaving over $1M is simply not the case.

It literally is.... 1M GTD and a possible shot at a SB

Quote

You say, 'Hey, this is what he wants to be here,' we'll say, 'Yes, we'll do it,' or 'No, we won't' as I'm going through this. So 12.5 [million], you said? On a three-year? And then what'd you say the guarantee was? 25 [million] guaranteed. OK, so that's, if I offered him today a three-year deal at 12.5 [million] APY and 25 [guaranteed], he'd be a Giant? OK, alright, well I'll give you a call back, this may be above me on Saquon, but if I call you back and it's three for 12.5 APY and 25 guaranteed, there you go? We'll bring him down today, we'll fly you up, do a press conference. Alright, appreciate you, buddy."

Quote

Schoen on the phone with Mara: "Hey John, how're you doing? I talked to the agent, and the agreement all along was that he would come back to me with a chance to match it. … I told the agent, I said if we match that deal, he's going to be a Giant. And he's like, 'Well…' You know, he hemmed and hawed, he's like, I'm not saying that, we've got a lot of work to do if that happens."

Quote

"Good day for you, good day to be Ed Berry," Schoen said on a phone call receiving the news of Barkley's offer. "What's he going to get? North of what you said? 12.5 APY, 25 guaranteed, north of that? OK, we're not going to go there. We're out. … Is it in the division? I'm trying to prepare myself mentally for what's going to happen, that's all."

"North of that" ended up being 26M GTD. SB left the Giants and gave up the ring of honor and finishing his career for 1M GTD. Cold hard fact.

Edited July 18 by Shockwave

[Go_Giants]

8 hours ago, Shockwave said:

"North of that" ended up being 26M GTD. SB left the Giants and gave up the ring of honor and finishing his career for 1M GTD. Cold hard fact.

No, Schoen never offered a contract. He didn't say to the agent. 'Tell Barkley we are giving him 25 million guaranteed, and let him decide.' I agree with Schoen's tactics; you don't invest in running backs, but you have to give Barkley an offer and have him turn it down before you can say he gave up on the Giants.   

[Shockwave]

4 hours ago, Go_Giants said:

No, Schoen never offered a contract. He didn't say to the agent. 'Tell Barkley we are giving him 25 million guaranteed, and let him decide.' I agree with Schoen's tactics; you don't invest in running backs, but you have to give Barkley an offer and have him turn it down before you can say he gave up on the Giants.   

I acknowledged in my first post no official offer was made. However he literally said to the agent "OK, alright, well I'll give you a call back, this may be above me on Saquon, but if I call you back and it's three for 12.5 APY and 25 guaranteed, there you go? We'll bring him down today, we'll fly you up, do a press conference. Alright, appreciate you, buddy." The agents response was "Well I'm not saying that, we've got a lot of work to do if that happens". That is when Schoen pulls the plug because he realizes at that point SB had no interest whatsoever coming back to the GMEN even at 25 GTD. Agent was trying to use the Giants to make an offer so he could go back to Philly and create a bidding war. Schoen saw right through it. Had the agent responded with a resounding "yes" I believe Schoen is on the phone with Mara and the offer gets made. SB left the Giants for 1M GTD. 

[Go_Giants]

1 hour ago, Shockwave said:

I acknowledged in my first post no official offer was made. However he literally said to the agent "OK, alright, well I'll give you a call back, this may be above me on Saquon, but if I call you back and it's three for 12.5 APY and 25 guaranteed, there you go? We'll bring him down today, we'll fly you up, do a press conference. Alright, appreciate you, buddy." The agents response was "Well I'm not saying that, we've got a lot of work to do if that happens". That is when Schoen pulls the plug because he realizes at that point SB had no interest whatsoever coming back to the GMEN even at 25 GTD. Agent was trying to use the Giants to make an offer so he could go back to Philly and create a bidding war. Schoen saw right through it. Had the agent responded with a resounding "yes" I believe Schoen is on the phone with Mara and the offer gets made. SB left the Giants for 1M GTD. 

First, Schoen lied. He didn't have to go to Mara about Barkley. Mara made it known he wanted Barkley back. Second, what decent agent will go with the first offer when their client is a wanted free agent? The Giants let Barkley be a free agent, so of course, the agent wants to drive the price as high as possible. It's his job. I have no idea how you can see this as Barkley leaving the Giants and not Schoen not wanting Barkley. However, it is a free country view it however you like.