vegas492 Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Old Guy said: Use the Terrell Davis standard. During a stretch of 6-7 years, nobody did it better than Bakh. Should he return to that form this year, he should be a lock. I feel like if I looked at Bakh best 6-7 years and then looked at the league, I'd easily find 3 others that did it as well as him, or even better. Maybe I'll try. To me, he isn't what a guy like Ogden was. Or Trent Williams is. He's in that next tier a tick below those guys. And many of those guys make it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packer_ESP Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 47 minutes ago, vegas492 said: I feel like if I looked at Bakh best 6-7 years and then looked at the league, I'd easily find 3 others that did it as well as him, or even better. Maybe I'll try. To me, he isn't what a guy like Ogden was. Or Trent Williams is. He's in that next tier a tick below those guys. And many of those guys make it in. Hmmm... I can't find sacks given up on any website now, but I think he had a pretty phenomenal stretch of zero sacks for a while. I think at least when it comes to pass blocking, he's definitely been a top guy for at least 4-5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Packer_ESP said: Hmmm... I can't find sacks given up on any website now, but I think he had a pretty phenomenal stretch of zero sacks for a while. I think at least when it comes to pass blocking, he's definitely been a top guy for at least 4-5 years. I know I take, or took, Bakh for granted back then. Seems like there were always tackles just a tick better than him in the league. And I could be wrong about that. Still, he's not HOF material to my liking just yet. But he's still only 31 and there is time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packer_ESP Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 (edited) 56 minutes ago, vegas492 said: I know I take, or took, Bakh for granted back then. Seems like there were always tackles just a tick better than him in the league. And I could be wrong about that. Still, he's not HOF material to my liking just yet. But he's still only 31 and there is time. Yeah my point wasn't so much about HOF, which I honestly don't pay a lot of attention to, but your post saying you could always find 3 guys better than him. I kept digging a bit and I found this old post from 2021 at PFF - of course, PFF isn't the best and it can be biased, but it does show how he was perceived: Quote 1. DAVID BAKHTIARI, GREEN BAY PACKERS Bakhtiari's play slightly dipped in 2019, but he made up for it with a career year in 2020. He posted a 91.8 PFF grade last season, marking the third time in the past four years where he ranked second among offensive tackles in PFF grade. Bakhtiari’s run blocking was far better than anything he previously showed, as he shattered his career-high grade in that facet by 17 grading points (86.7). In the way of pass protection, Bakhtiari remained the best in the NFL. His 91.6 pass-block grade ranked No. 1 among tackles — his fifth straight top-five finish in that metric. Sure, he was aided to an extent by Matt LaFleur’s offense, which limited his true pass set opportunities, but Bakhtiari was still a top-five-graded tackle even when isolating his performance to stable reps (as he was in 2019, 2018, 2017 and 2016). In fact, he leads all tackles in true pass set grade over the past five years by more than eight grading points. Offensive Tackle Rankings: The 32 best OTs entering the 2021 NFL season | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF Edited July 11, 2023 by Packer_ESP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Guy Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 1 hour ago, vegas492 said: I know I take, or took, Bakh for granted back then. Seems like there were always tackles just a tick better than him in the league. And I could be wrong about that. Still, he's not HOF material to my liking just yet. But he's still only 31 and there is time. 1 hour ago, Packer_ESP said: Yeah my point wasn't so much about HOF, which I honestly don't pay a lot of attention to, but your post saying you could always find 3 guys better than him. I kept digging a bit and I found this old post from 2021 at PFF - of course, PFF isn't the best and it can be biased, but it does show how he was perceived: Offensive Tackle Rankings: The 32 best OTs entering the 2021 NFL season | NFLTh News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF This article right here is my point. The media wants you to believe Trent WIlliams has been better than Bakh, but the truth is, he wasn't as good as Bakh. For a 5 year stretch he was 9 points better rated at pass blocking than ANY T in the league. Also, it's not like he's a liability in run blocking either. He's actually. quite good. Another guy nobody mentions because he plays RT is Lane Johnson. That guy deserves to be in HOF mention. He may not get in because he (I believe) was suspended for PED use at least once. Is that a disqualifying thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainmaker90 Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 I’m always claiming Jamaal Williams as ours. What a great human. He , Jones and Dillon are just such easy people to cheer for 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 16 hours ago, Packer_ESP said: Yeah my point wasn't so much about HOF, which I honestly don't pay a lot of attention to, but your post saying you could always find 3 guys better than him. I kept digging a bit and I found this old post from 2021 at PFF - of course, PFF isn't the best and it can be biased, but it does show how he was perceived: Offensive Tackle Rankings: The 32 best OTs entering the 2021 NFL season | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF 15 hours ago, Old Guy said: This article right here is my point. The media wants you to believe Trent WIlliams has been better than Bakh, but the truth is, he wasn't as good as Bakh. For a 5 year stretch he was 9 points better rated at pass blocking than ANY T in the league. Also, it's not like he's a liability in run blocking either. He's actually. quite good. Another guy nobody mentions because he plays RT is Lane Johnson. That guy deserves to be in HOF mention. He may not get in because he (I believe) was suspended for PED use at least once. Is that a disqualifying thing? I can't believe that someone on here would bring up, then get supported for using PFF OL metrics to validate an opinion on an offensive line player. I mean, I get it, I've done, it is kind of the only place that has a scoring metric for OL blocking. But, whenever I've posted PFF scores, the common comeback is that their O-Line scoring is horrendous. And that seems to be a shared sentiment across most boards on here, not just the Packers board. Is/was Bakh very good? No doubt. I don't need PFF to tell me that. I also still feel like if I looked in the league and wanted a stud tackle (in past years), he's top 5 without a doubt. Maybe even top 3. But I still feel like if I looked hard enough, I'd find a couple that I liked better. And off the top of my head, for the past 7 years or so, there's been no LT in our division that I'd trade for over him. So that's one division down. He's in rare air, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Guy Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, vegas492 said: I can't believe that someone on here would bring up, then get supported for using PFF OL metrics to validate an opinion on an offensive line player. I mean, I get it, I've done, it is kind of the only place that has a scoring metric for OL blocking. But, whenever I've posted PFF scores, the common comeback is that their O-Line scoring is horrendous. And that seems to be a shared sentiment across most boards on here, not just the Packers board. Is/was Bakh very good? No doubt. I don't need PFF to tell me that. I also still feel like if I looked in the league and wanted a stud tackle (in past years), he's top 5 without a doubt. Maybe even top 3. But I still feel like if I looked hard enough, I'd find a couple that I liked better. And off the top of my head, for the past 7 years or so, there's been no LT in our division that I'd trade for over him. So that's one division down. He's in rare air, for sure. A nine-point difference is not a small number in rating of pass blocking tackles. It's a Grand Canyon type of disparity. You can knock PFF, but if they came up with that wide a margin of difference, it's meaningful. Nobody has ever accused them of being Packer loyalists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Old Guy said: A nine-point difference is not a small number in rating of pass blocking tackles. It's a Grand Canyon type of disparity. You can knock PFF, but if they came up with that wide a margin of difference, it's meaningful. Nobody has ever accused them of being Packer loyalists. And yet literally everyone on here knows that OL scoring on PFF is suspect at best. It is also the best that we have to go on, and that isn't saying much. You are all for it now because it shows how good Bakh was during that time period and that supports your opinion. Yet I'm not saying Bakh wasn't that good. Simply that if I looked hard enough during his career, I may find a couple other tackles that I'd rather have. And that is what relates to the HOF stuff. I doubt, highly, that PFF is a factor being considered for the HOF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Guy Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, vegas492 said: And yet literally everyone on here knows that OL scoring on PFF is suspect at best. It is also the best that we have to go on, and that isn't saying much. You are all for it now because it shows how good Bakh was during that time period and that supports your opinion. Yet I'm not saying Bakh wasn't that good. Simply that if I looked hard enough during his career, I may find a couple other tackles that I'd rather have. And that is what relates to the HOF stuff. I doubt, highly, that PFF is a factor being considered for the HOF. You could say that about half the players in the HOF. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turf toe Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, vegas492 said: And yet literally everyone on here knows that OL scoring on PFF is suspect at best. It is also the best that we have to go on, and that isn't saying much. You are all for it now because it shows how good Bakh was during that time period and that supports your opinion. Yet I'm not saying Bakh wasn't that good. Simply that if I looked hard enough during his career, I may find a couple other tackles that I'd rather have. And that is what relates to the HOF stuff. I doubt, highly, that PFF is a factor being considered for the HOF. thing is we all can find something to say a player isn't the best at his position, but Bakhtiari has so few flaws it's hard to pinpoint anything that should hold him out of the hall, although not the best run blocker, he's still near enough to the best that it shouldn't cancel out that he has been the top pass protector in the league most of his career, his overall top 5 rating, and #1 three times imo should get him on the list once he retires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 6 minutes ago, turf toe said: thing is we all can find something to say a player isn't the best at his position, but Bakhtiari has so few flaws it's hard to pinpoint anything that should hold him out of the hall, although not the best run blocker, he's still near enough to the best that it shouldn't cancel out that he has been the top pass protector in the league most of his career, his overall top 5 rating, and #1 three times imo should get him on the list once he retires It is beyond crazy to believe that PFF rankings or stats factor in at all concerning Hall of Fame status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Joe Thomas was elected in 2023. 11 years played 10 Pro Bowls 8X on the All Pro List. 6 times as first team. 2 times as second team. Boselli was elected in 2022. And it was controversial. 7 years played. 5 Pro Bowls 3X first team all Pro. None in 2021. Jimbo Covert in 2022. None in 2017, 2018 or 2019. Orlando Pace in 2018. Will Shields in 2015. That's the recent sample of T's that get into the HOF. So, there's the standard. Bakh's career. 10 years. 3 Pro Bowls. 5 All Pro Teams. First team twice. Second team 3 times. As I said earlier, before having PFF OL stats ridiculously cited as HOF credentials, Bakh is close. If he plays at an elite level, as he did last year, for 3 more years, that resume should stack up to HOF standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/top-10-offensive-linemen-of-the-decade http://ainsworthsports.com/football_player_rankings_by_position_ol_2010s.htm https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/nfl-best-offensive-tackles-trent-williams-lane-johnson-rashawn-slater/ (This is a recent list, Bakh wasn't mentioned.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 34 minutes ago, Old Guy said: You could say that about half the players in the HOF. LOL It's cringe worthy to feel like PFF has anything to do with HOF votes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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