Kip Smithers Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, LeeEvans said: I'm kind of tired of this debate but it does seem incredibly reactive. What about last WC where Messi basically dragged Argentina to the final on his own? Ronaldo had an incredible performance against Spain, its not out of the realm of possible that Messi scores a hat trick in his next match. Of course it is reactive. The Free kick was amazing. Yet two of the other goals were a penalty (which tbf he won) and a goalkeeping gaffe by DDG. He still had a pretty good game sans the goals but it’s so reactionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kempus Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, LeeEvans said: I'm kind of tired of this debate but it does seem incredibly reactive. What about last WC where Messi basically dragged Argentina to the final on his own? Ronaldo had an incredible performance against Spain, its not out of the realm of possible that Messi scores a hat trick in his next match. And then choked, as he always does Internationaly. Also, look at who Messi has around him, that team should be making the World cup final. As others have noted, it's as much Messi's falut that Argentina haven't matched their immense potential as anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeEvans Posted June 17, 2018 Author Share Posted June 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, kempus said: And then choked, as he always does Internationaly. Also, look at who Messi has around him, that team should be making the World cup final. As others have noted, it's as much Messi's falut that Argentina haven't matched their immense potential as anyone else. Sorry was Messi the one who missed two open looks at goal? No it was Higuain. Argentina have really good forwards but the rest of their squad is so poor and I think worse than Portugal's. The forwards dont seem to perform for Argentina, much more so than Messi. Di Maria is good for Argentina but there is very few others who perform reliably. Everyone fixates on Argentina's forwards but their performances at club level never transfer to international. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kempus Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 1 minute ago, LeeEvans said: Everyone fixates on Argentina's forwards but their performances at club level never transfer to international. That's because the system is Messi or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeEvans Posted June 17, 2018 Author Share Posted June 17, 2018 Just now, kempus said: That's because the system is Messi or nothing. And that's Messi's fault? If the players are so good they should be able to play with one of the world's best players no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kempus Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Just now, LeeEvans said: And that's Messi's fault? If the players are so good they should be able to play with one of the world's best players no? If he's one of the best players in the world, he should be able to seamlessly play with others and in different systems, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeEvans Posted June 17, 2018 Author Share Posted June 17, 2018 1 minute ago, kempus said: If he's one of the best players in the world, he should be able to seamlessly play with others and in different systems, no? I just dont see how you hold the system against him. Messi getting to the WC final is so much more impressive than Ronaldo "winning" the Euros with a disgustingly defensive Portugal. I honestly dont really give a damn about this debate, they're both good as hell but get tired of the ridiculous criticism of Messi. Eithe way, I'm done talking about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, PAW said: Again simply not true. Ronaldo’s stats are impacted by playing in the EPL. Since he has been in Spain and playing like for like competition, his scoring rate is better than Messi’s. Comparing career stats when playing in different leagues is stupid. Barcelona has never been a counter attacking team lol Ronaldo led Portugal to a major title with a crap roster. He got hurt early in the final but Portugal doesn’t sniff getting there without him. I don’t care he got a hat trick vs Spain and Messi underperformed like always right after. Ronaldo always looks better for Portugal than Messi does for Argentina even though Argentina has a much better roster. First off, the notion that we should only compare them once they reached La Liga is silly. Because that means any comparisons across players from different leagues should be looked less so. They both played in the major leagues in Europe. You must not have watched them under Enrique. They’re Barcelona and so they’re typically going have more possession. But they were still a team that placed emphasis on counter attack. Ronaldo let Portugal to a major title? One in which for one they qualified for the knockout stages without winning a single game. And they won the Final without him. Yet in the last WC they couldn’t even make it out the group stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeEvans Posted June 17, 2018 Author Share Posted June 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said: Ronaldo let Portugal to a major title? One in which for one they qualified for the knockout stages without winning a single game. And they won the Final without him. Yet in the last WC they couldn’t even make it out the group stage. USA! USA! USA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAW Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Kip Smithers said: First off, the notion that we should only compare them once they reached La Liga is silly. Because that means any comparisons across players from different leagues should be looked less so. They both played in the major leagues in Europe. You must not have watched them under Enrique. They’re Barcelona and so they’re typically going have more possession. But they were still a team that placed emphasis on counter attack. Ronaldo let Portugal to a major title? One in which for one they qualified for the knockout stages without winning a single game. And they won the Final without him. Yet in the last WC they couldn’t even make it out the group stage. I didn’t say comparisons I said stats. It’s like comparing NBA stats to Euro League stats. It’s much harder to dominate the EPL than it is La Liga which is what makes his 07-08 season one of the best ever and why Salah should win the Ballon d'Or this year. Cristiano is averaging over a goal a game in La Liga, Messi is not. It is foolish to compare stats in different leagues. Just because they put more emphasis on defending doesn’t make them a counter attacking team. They’ve always been a team built around possession. Are you saying Ronaldo wasn’t Portugal’s best player (by far) in their Euro run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullsandBroncos Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 30 minutes ago, PAW said: I didn’t say comparisons I said stats. It’s like comparing NBA stats to Euro League stats. It’s much harder to dominate the EPL than it is La Liga which is what makes his 07-08 season one of the best ever and why Salah should win the Ballon d'Or this year. Cristiano is averaging over a goal a game in La Liga, Messi is not. It is foolish to compare stats in different leagues. Just because they put more emphasis on defending doesn’t make them a counter attacking team. They’ve always been a team built around possession. Are you saying Ronaldo wasn’t Portugal’s best player (by far) in their Euro run? Agreed. There are vast differences in a lot of the top Euro leagues. Morata dominated with Juventus, Did slightly less in Madrid when he went back. With Chelsea, I'd say he's been quite a disappointment. I'm not familiar with the Italian League at all besides seeing Roma and Juventus play in the CL. I watch a lot of La Liga and EPL and I will say this. It's easier to score in La Liga, specifically from distance and most of the top players like Ronaldo and Messi are good at such things. EPL is much more physical features close range but harder to acquire goals because of congestion of good defense. La Liga still doesn't get respect beneath the Top 3 teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 1 hour ago, PAW said: I didn’t say comparisons I said stats. It’s like comparing NBA stats to Euro League stats. It’s much harder to dominate the EPL than it is La Liga which is what makes his 07-08 season one of the best ever and why Salah should win the Ballon d'Or this year. Cristiano is averaging over a goal a game in La Liga, Messi is not. It is foolish to compare stats in different leagues. Just because they put more emphasis on defending doesn’t make them a counter attacking team. They’ve always been a team built around possession. Are you saying Ronaldo wasn’t Portugal’s best player (by far) in their Euro run? No it’s not lol, that’s such a poor analogy. Is it harder to dominate in the PL? Yeah I’d agree with that but in this comparison that should matter very little, if at all. If you take out the penalties he has scored his goal ratio drops to 0.84 for Madrid. Messi’s drops to 0.87. Besides Messi didn’t become Messi till about a year before Ronaldo arrived. Again, the Barca team under Enrique were much more direct than they were before and emphasised the counter attack much more. Like I said, they’re Barcelona so they’re gonna have the bulk of possession but Messi-Suárez and Neymar were deadly on the counter. So the notion that Messi couldn’t play under a counter attacking style is ridiculous. That Portugal team that won the Euros was so unimpressive. They were Honestly like Greece in 04. They had no real standout players. They didn’t even win a single group stage game. They finished third and only qualified because of a stupid format. I can’t even pinpoint their best player that tournament Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 8 hours ago, PAW said: The hardest thing to do in the sport is score, and Ronaldo is better than Messi at that and can do it in more ways. Lionel Messi Barcelona 78 mins per goal 34Goals scored 12 Assists Cristiano Ronaldo Real Madrid 108 mins per goal 2292 played 26Goals scored 5 Assists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Guess the above must due to him deciding to take half the season off, seeing that he's SUCH a prolific goal scorer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAW Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 3 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said: Lionel Messi Barcelona 78 mins per goal 34Goals scored 12 Assists Cristiano Ronaldo Real Madrid 108 mins per goal 2292 played 26Goals scored 5 Assists Didn't know one season determined who has had a better career, but the accurate statistics for this year are: Messi 45 goals in 54 games Ronaldo 44 goals in 44 games (while going further in CL...harder to keep scoring) But I'm done arguing, it is pointless. Messi is flashier, Ronaldo is more productive and a serial winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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