Derek Carr vs Jimmy Garappalo

[TecmoSuperJoe]

2 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

You're vastly underestimating the system. I watched the games. They weren't scrubs. Not all world, but Shanny's offense is good.

Except the offense was largely doing nothing until Jimmy took over. That's why they were 1-9. Hoyer and Beathard largely looked like ***. Everyone got a boost because of Jimmy. Especially the offensive line. No system was going to make Zane Beadles play better. Here is a decent breakdown of what the 49ers were before and after Jimmy started:

49ers weren't even in any top 20 of any positive offensive category other than Pass yards/game at 17th. At the end of the day you need talent regardless of whatever system you're going to trot out there. Jimmy masked largely a lackluster roster. No skill players on our squad scared anyone, except maybe Goodwin to a degree because of his deep speed.

 

[MrOaktown_56]

Just now, PapaShogun said:

Except the offense was largely doing nothing until Jimmy took over. That's why they were 1-9. Everyone got a boost because of Jimmy. Especially the offensive line. No system was going to make Zane Beadles play better. 

 

Ok... it's 1 player with beadles. Believe me, many teams have bad players, whos flaws can be hidden by creative schemes and apt playcalling, which Shannahan excels at.

Brian Hoyer is garbage. Jimmy improving the offense dramatically from Hoyer is a given if he's anywhere near the caliber of qb some people in this forum believe me to be. Doesn't mean he isn't vastly overpaid based on his resume. Even Brian Hoyer helped the team put up big numbers in some games. The 49ers WITH HOYER were very close to eking out a lot of those games early in the season. And the fact that they put up big numbers in some of those games shows that the scheme and pieces were there for an NFL caliber starting quarterback to succeed. Compare to a truly horrendous offense like Oakland in 2014, where almost no qb would have succeeded with the garbage they trotted out on the field.

Hoyer (2nd fastest in the league) took less time to throw on average than Garoppolo (29th). How did he boost the OL? Was it audibles? Shifting protections? Please explain.

Jimmy played well, but lets not act like many other quarterbacks couldn't have taken the reins of that offense, or that 5 games is a hilariously small sample size to evaluate a quarterback, regardless of who they are, let alone giving a guy the league lead in APY for his resume. Obviously the FO had to pay him, but it doesn't mean he's overpaid and overrated by many. 

If Jimmy has a MVP candidate type season in 2018, then regresses because of bad play calling and injuries in 2019, and then is compared to a guy who played well for 5 games on a bad team to end the season, what would you say? Because that's the comparison between him and Carr right now.

 

 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

46 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Ok... it's 1 player with beadles. Believe me, many teams have bad players, whos flaws can be hidden by creative schemes and apt playcalling, which Shannahan excels at.

Brian Hoyer is garbage. Jimmy improving the offense dramatically from Hoyer is a given if he's anywhere near the caliber of qb some people in this forum believe me to be. Doesn't mean he isn't vastly overpaid based on his resume. Even Brian Hoyer helped the team put up big numbers in some games. The 49ers WITH HOYER were very close to eking out a lot of those games early in the season. And the fact that they put up big numbers in some of those games shows that the scheme and pieces were there for an NFL caliber starting quarterback to succeed. Compare to a truly horrendous offense like Oakland in 2014, where almost no qb would have succeeded with the garbage they trotted out on the field.

Hoyer (2nd fastest in the league) took less time to throw on average than Garoppolo (29th). How did he boost the OL? Was it audibles? Shifting protections? Please explain.

Jimmy played well, but lets not act like many other quarterbacks couldn't have taken the reins of that offense, or that 5 games is a hilariously small sample size to evaluate a quarterback, regardless of who they are, let alone giving a guy the league lead in APY for his resume. Obviously the FO had to pay him, but it doesn't mean he's overpaid and overrated by many. 

If Jimmy has a MVP candidate type season in 2018, then regresses because of bad play calling and injuries in 2019, and then is compared to a guy who played well for 5 games on a bad team to end the season, what would you say? Because that's the comparison between him and Carr right now.

 

 

No...that's just one player I gave an example of. Joe Staley was the only one on that line that was worth a darn. Kilgore, sucked, Magnuson sucked, Brown wasn't very good as a run blocker in addition to always being hurt (Jimmy only got to play one game with him before Beadles was inserted), and then there was Beadles. Fusco (who is gone) and Tomlinson were average on their best days. Pressure was in Hoyer and Bethard's face constantly. If it wasn't for Jimmy's quick release things would have looked a lot worse on offense. 

Brian Hoyer is garbage, but you just said the system is being underestimated. What? How about you still need talent regardless of what system you run like I said. The 49ers with Hoyer didn't win **** bottom line. Meanwhile another dude came to a new team in the middle of the season and rick rolled. No training camp, no familiarity with players, coaches or the offense, playing on a 1-9 squad, had to learn a brand new system in two weeks time before being released to the wolves. Putting someone in those kind of odds, and expecting them to be a top dog the rest of the way is a pipe dream. Yet it happened with the deck completely stacked. And of course the 49ers went undefeated the rest of the way. 

Hoyer put up two 300 yard games twice in six starts. In this day and age, I don't think that's a really big deal at all. Beathard had none, but he was a rookie but in a horrible situation. So it's whatever. No one was completing even 60% of their passes. And that was with Garcon in the lineup, who was gone when Jimmy took over. Hoyer was also familiar with the system, and had experience. 

I'm talking release time with Jimmy G. The time from wind up to when the ball is gone. Your source is time to throw right? That's from snap of the ball to release. Jimmy's poise in the pocket and elusiveness is what also helped. That's what happens when you have talent. You make your offensive line look better. And if a defender gets in your face you can get rid of the ball quickly. 

Yes, other established quarterbacks could have probably played as well. Someone with two starts under their belt in their short NFL career? Unlikely. Especially with the talent on the roster. 

As for your last statement, I don't see that happening. Shanahan will be here the next two seasons so that is a moot point. He's not a bad playcaller. If someone does that Jimmy did in those five games under those circumstances looking just as good if not better they deserve to get paid. Good luck finding that guy.

If Carr continues to regress under Gruden, what will you say? Will the playcalling still be the main culprit? 

[MrOaktown_56]

2 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

No...that's just one player I gave an example of. Joe Staley was the only one on that line that was worth a darn. Kilgore, sucked, Magnuson sucked, Brown wasn't very good as a run blocker in addition to always being hurt (Jimmy only got to play one game with him before Beadles was inserted), and then there was Beadles. Fusco (who is gone) and Tomlinson were average on their best days. Pressure was in Hoyer and Bethard's face constantly. If it wasn't for Jimmy's quick release things would have looked a lot worse on offense. 

Brian Hoyer is garbage, but you just said the system is being underestimated. What? How about you still need talent regardless of what system you run like I said. The 49ers with Hoyer didn't win **** bottom line. Meanwhile another dude came to a new team in the middle of the season and rick rolled. No training camp, no familiarity with players, coaches or the offense, playing on a 1-9 squad, had to learn a brand new system in two weeks time before being released to the wolves. Putting someone in those kind of odds, and expecting them to be a top dog the rest of the way is a pipe dream. Yet it happened with the deck completely stacked. And of course the 49ers went undefeated the rest of the way. 

Hoyer put up two 300 yard games twice in six starts. In this day and age, I don't think that's a really big deal at all. Beathard had none, but he was a rookie but in a horrible situation. So it's whatever. No one was completing even 60% of their passes. And that was with Garcon in the lineup, who was gone when Jimmy took over. Hoyer was also familiar with the system, and had experience. 

I'm talking release time with Jimmy G. The time from wind up to when the ball is gone. Your source is time to throw right? That's from snap of the ball to release. Jimmy's poise in the pocket and elusiveness is what also helped. That's what happens when you have talent. You make your offensive line look better. And if a defender gets in your face you can get rid of the ball quickly. 

Yes, other established quarterbacks could have probably played as well. Someone with two starts under their belt in their short NFL career? Unlikely. Especially with the talent on the roster. 

As for your last statement, I don't see that happening. Shanahan will be here the next two seasons so that is a moot point. He's not a bad playcaller. If someone does that Jimmy did in those five games under those circumstances looking just as good if not better they deserve to get paid. Good luck finding that guy.

If Carr continues to regress under Gruden, what will you say? Will the playcalling still be the main culprit? 

My point wasn’t that this hypothetical is feasible. It’s that you can’t objectively tell me that if Garoppolo had the kind of season Carr had in 2016, then regressed due to circumstances largely out of his control (e.g. playcalling and injury), you would take an upstart who showed promise in 5 games over him.

 

Also, I wouldn’t say Carr has regressed as much as he was hit by the injury bug and faced with another new offense. He’s on his 4^th playcaller in 5 years. That lack of continuity is terrible for a young quarterback.

 

Yeah if he regresses with Gruden, I’ll call him out. But any time he’s been healthy (all of 2015/16) and had a cast/at least average playcaller, he’s excelled and carried this team. Carr’s drop adjusted passer rating (adjusted to league average) would have been about 108 according to prior calculations I did in 2016. He sustained that over a season in arguably the toughest division in football on a team with a bad defense and a run game that he opened up with his arm. The worst part is that his best was at the end of the season when he was really coming into his own. His performance against the colts is one of the most complete performances I’ve ever seen from a young quarterback in terms of the throws he made.

And truly, I don’t think you appreciate (wrong word) the gravity of how bad downing’s playcalling was. Yes every person on earth hates their OC and thinks they’re the worst but this is different.  I have to give Carr the benefit of the doubt because of the dysfunction of this organization. Next year, with a good staff,  if he can’t excel, I’ll acknowledge the merit to your point. But as of now, sample size/level of play absolutely favors Carr.

[MrOaktown_56]

And to your point about the skill players, you could say the same about the Rams receivers with McVay. And yet... their pass game excelled.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

And to your point about the skill players, you could say the same about the Rams receivers with McVay. And yet... their pass game excelled.

What? Cooper Kupp and Robert Woods were new additions to the Rams this past year. Same with Sammy Watkins. Who did Jimmy G have again? Goodwin and...?

BTW, would be nice to have someone like Todd Gurely in the backfield. 

[daineraider]

On 7/24/2018 at 5:43 PM, Elky said:

Carr will never amount to anything more than an average quarterback. Jimmy on the other hand is the Next Big Thing.

Carrs 2016 season was well above average(so your comment is already wrong).

Before breaking his leg and missing the last game he had over 3900 yds and 28 TDs to 6INTs.  He was a huge reason we were 12-3 at the time he went down, I wouldnt call that average.  Last year he broke a bone in his back and was dealing with that and Downing as our OC.  If in the next two years he doesnt show improvement from last year, then I will start to agree with you.

[MookieMonstah]

Jimmy G, pretty easily in fact. Be back at the end of this season to make y'all eat crow.