Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[nagahide13]

It's not weird that she goes mad queen. The execution of her flip was terrible, however. I have no idea why she waiting until the surrender, and I have no idea why she burned the entire city full of civilians before going after the Red Keep. If she snapped that hard, she should have done so well before the attack. If she was going to burn the city, she could have done it at any point. Having razed King's Landing also surely loses her whatever native Westerosi she has on her side, and thereby negates the entire reason she went north to fight the Night King in the first place.

Dany consistently tells the Easterners that she'll raze and kill because that's what inspires confidence from those people. She constantly tells the Westerosi that she "Is not here to be Queen of the Ashes" because that inspires faith from them. There was plenty of proof that she could go in either direction.

Furthermore, I'd argue that both sides arguing over Dany's nature are actually correct, which would embody the actual internal struggle she was going through, which is exactly what I wanted to see on screen. Emilia Clark is certainly more than capable.

Edited May 14, 2019 by nagahide13

[Matts4313]

13 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

She uses the idea in extreme cases and if I remember correctly all of those were in Slaver's Bay with the Master's who probably deserve it.

You are misremembering. She clearly states multiple times that she wants to burn KL down.

Lets just agree to disagree. IMO a person threatens to burn down cities for 10 years is not out of character when she does it. In your opinion it is because she hasnt burnt a city before (although she has killed a lot of innocent people). 

I dont think either one of us will convince the other. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Matts4313

[Matts4313]

7 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Her character has impulses stemming all the way from childhood. If she was the Mad Queen then like her father she would not have listened to council. The fact that she listened means it was completely out of character for her to go off the rails like that.

She isnt a mad queen. She is Dany, and Dany is a killer. She is no less "mad" than Cersei. 

And she didnt go "off the rails". She did what she said she was going to do. 

[Calvert28]

1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

 

From Reddit:

Like I said. 100% in line with her character. 

You're arguing that her character is to always kill w/e opposes her no matter what.

That's King Aery's II type mad. And the Mad King didn't listen to council. Actually the Mad King didn't even start out like you are arguing Dany did. He started a charming young man, very amiable and cunning. Everyone loved him.

Dany was the exact same. Then all of a sudden, over the course of this last season and like one instant in season 7 she completely goes off the rails and stops listening to her councilers who are still alive at that point to just make points. The burning of the Tarly's was rash and in line with her character somewhat. But Tyrion repeated time and time again that KL had over a million people in it. Did you see anyone running out of those gates before or at the end? Only Jon and his men did from what I saw and the city was in complete ruins.

She didn't burn the entire Dothraki horde to the ground. She didn't do it in Slaver's Bay either.

So you say it's in line with her character when she has never committed an act this extreme before. She killed a couple of dozen men in Vaes Dothrak, a few hundred Masters. All of these people who dealt in slavery as well as wanted her dead, and many were warriors themselves. And yet people who in no way had any dealings with her and did her no harm. She jumped from murdering a few hundred people in cold blood to murdering over a million.

[nagahide13]

Just now, Matts4313 said:

She isnt a mad queen. She is Dany, and Dany is a killer. She is no less "mad" than Cersei. 

And she didnt go "off the rails". She did what she said she was going to do. 

She totally went off the rails. She burned down a city of civilians that were begging for surrender, whether or not that was out of character. She's the most prolific killer in the show, especially concerning innocent civilians.

[Calvert28]

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

She isnt a mad queen. She is Dany, and Dany is a killer. She is no less "mad" than Cersei. 

And she didnt go "off the rails". She did what she said she was going to do. 

Wrong. Dany always stopped herself. She was always level headed enough to heed council.

Again jumping from executing a few hundred people to executing over a million is a massive jump no matter how you look at it.

[Calvert28]

7 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

You are misremembering. She clearly states multiple times that she wants to burn KL down.

Lets just agree to disagree. IMO a person threatens to burn down cities for 10 years is not out of character when she does it. In your opinion it isny because she hasnt burnt a city before (although she has killed a lot of innocent people). 

I dont think either one of us will convince the other. 

My point is, if she had enough sense to listen to council then she would have listened to them then.

It was out of character for her to do that. If she just went after the castle when the bells were rung and left the rest of the city alone. That would have been more in line with a vengeful Dany.

I agree you are not going to change my mind though.

[Matts4313]

10 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

She jumped from murdering a few hundred people in cold blood to murdering over a million.

My biggest complaint from show watchers is that they feel they need to be shown every detail.

I highly doubt she killed over a million. Even Tyrion said "thousands" would die. Just because they didnt show you people surviving doesnt mean that they didnt (remember E3 and the big war? Only wiped out 1/2 the army). Same thing with the complaint that Jon did pet his dog. Just because they dont show you something, doesnt mean it didnt happen. 

 

I still dont think she "went off the rails". No more than Cersei when she blew up the sept. She had been contemplating this move for a while. Those grimace faces where her building up the nerve/hatred to go through with what she thought she needed to do. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Matts4313

[Calvert28]

1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

My biggest complaint from show watchers is that they feel they need to be shown every detail.

I highly doubt he killed over a million. Even Tyrion said "thousands" would die. Just because they didnt show you people surviving doesnt mean that they didnt (remember E3 and the big war? Only wiped out 1/2 the army). Same thing with the complaint that Jon did pet his dog. Just because they dont show you something, doesnt mean it didnt happen. 

Nobody got out of the city besides Jon's army and Arya. Tyrion said that over a million people lived there. Most of the buildings were destroyed and there were not that many places to hide where she hit. And if you look closely at the episode there was still Wild Fire caches stashed all over the city that went up in flames. Of course not everyone died there, but they were inviting people into the capital to taunt Dany and the city was jammed packed full of citizens. A city that holds over 1 million as Tyrion repeated over and over again. So there is no way only thousands died.

1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

 

I still dont think she "went off the rails". No more than Cersei when she blew up the sept. She had been contemplating this move for a while. Those grimace faces where her building up the nerve/hatred to go through with what she thought she needed to do. 

Cersei though has always been a sociopath. Dany hasn't, Dany "breaking chains" and "liberating" cities proved this. It gave her strength and it was her main reason for not going to Westeros when she first conquered Astapor. She never turned on civilians like this before. Again she didn't burn down Mereen, she executed Masters, she murdered Dothraki Warlords, but these civilians were neither and there was a big difference between them. Dany had some cons to her but her biggest appeal is that she was genuine in her affection for people and she was willing to defend them when need be and help them.

[bucsfan333]

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

She is Cersei with Dragons.

Bingo.

[Matts4313]

10 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Nobody got out of the city besides Jon's army and Arya

Again. This is an assumption. Which was the entire point of my post. Dont make assumptions just because they didnt show you the survivors. 

You didnt really have to look close for the wild fire. Its goes off like 2-3 different scenes. 

Dany broke chains and liberated because in essos she was able to command love. In Westeros, she is not able to command love. Only fear. So she brought blood and fire. Like she said she would. Maybe, ya know, she was telling the truth the last 10 years. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Matts4313

[Matts4313]

1 minute ago, bucsfan333 said:

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

She is Cersei with Dragons.

Bingo.

Both moms. Both have 3 kids. Both do wildly violent things when their children are hurt. Both are single minded in wanting the throne no matter what the cost. 

[nagahide13]

11 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I still dont think she "went off the rails". No more than Cersei when she blew up the sept. She had been contemplating this move for a while. Those grimace faces where her building up the nerve/hatred to go through with what she thought she needed to do. 

I'd argue two things;

1. That's exactly when Cersei 'went over the rails'. That was the culmination of her transition from sociopath to full on psychopath.

2. What Dany did is still far worse. Cersei blew up the sept with what she would certainly consider acceptable collateral damage. She wanted to rule over King's landing. Dany literally hunted down civilians, intentionally setting fire to every major street she could find. She razed the entire city.

[Calvert28]

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Again. This is an assumption. Which was the entire point of my post. Dont make assumptions just because they didnt show you the survivors. 

No I think I will because it is very plausible given the circumstance and scenes. Just like I'm assuming Jaime, Cersei, Euron, Gregor, and Sandor all died even though we didn't literally get to see their corpses.

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

You didnt really have to look close for the wild fire. Its goes off like 2-3 different scenes. 

Good and if you remember the Sept of Baelor, you know know how much ground it covers when it goes off.

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Dany broke chains and liberated because in essos she was able to command love. In Westeros, she is not able to command love. Only fear. So she brought blood and fire. Like she said she would. Maybe, ya know, she was telling the truth the last 10 years. 

She wasn't looking to command love. She even gave all of them the option to return to their homes and not have to serve her. That is not commanding anything.

[Calvert28]

5 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Both moms. Both have 3 kids. Both do wildly violent things when their children are hurt. Both are single minded in wanting the throne no matter what the cost. 

No matter what the cost and yet Dany chose to stay in Mereen for several years. Despite having a force capable of landing in Westeros.