MacReady Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Just now, CWood21 said: So he's a niche back is what you're telling me? In Ty's best season (2016), he had had 44 receptions, 348 receiving yards, and 0 TD receptions on 56 targets. Though 9 games this year, Kamara has 55 receptions, 473 receiving yards, and 3 TD receptions. Kamara in 9 games outproduced what Ty Montgomery did in 15 games. And to answer your question, I don't know. I'd probably say Kamara. But the reality is the Packers have never had an elite pass catcher at RB since McCarthy/Rodgers began. I already explained this. Montgomery had 20 catches in two games for 166 yards. That was in 2016 when our offense was sputtering early on. Rodgers never targeted him after that. Nearly 3/4 of Montgomery's targets came in those two games. How is Montgomery supposed to be an effective receiving back if he's never targeted? Brees would target Montgomery. As I added to my question (which you ignored or missed), Ingram, Cadet and Hightower had 108 receptions between them the year before Kamara was drafted. My entire point is that Rodgers doesn't target running backs, Brees does. Elite receiving RB? Travaris Cadet had 40 receptions for 281 yards and 4 touchdowns in 2016. HE wasn't elite. 108 receptions, 800 yards, 9 touchdowns between Cadet, Ingram and Hightower in 2016 for the Saints. It doesn't take an elite receiving back to have success throwing to a running back if you actually throw to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 @CWood21, let's quit this argument tactic stuff and answer me straight up. Alvin Kamara here. Montgomery there. Who has more receptions? Hell, Eddie Lacy had an elite receiving season in 2014. He averaged two yards more per reception than Kamara is averaging right now. He only had 44 catches. Eddie Lacy was a Freddy Krueger nightmare receiving the ball in 2014 and Rodgers got him the ball only 44 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: I already explained this. Montgomery had 20 catches in two games for 166 yards. That was in 2016 when our offense was sputtering early on. Rodgers never targeted him after that. Nearly 3/4 of Montgomery's targets came in those two games. How is Montgomery supposed to be an effective receiving back if he's never targeted? Brees would target Montgomery. As I added to my question (which you ignored or missed), Ingram, Cadet and Hightower had 108 receptions between them the year before Kamara was drafted. My entire point is that Rodgers doesn't target running backs, Brees does. Elite receiving RB? Travaris Cadet had 40 receptions for 281 yards and 4 touchdowns in 2016. HE wasn't elite. 108 receptions, 800 yards, 9 touchdowns between Cadet, Ingram and Hightower in 2016 for the Saints. It doesn't take an elite receiving back to have success throwing to a running back if you actually throw to them. What makes you think that the productivity level that Ty showed in those two games is even remotely sustainable? Short answer, it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgbeethree Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, CWood21 said: So he's a niche back is what you're telling me? In Ty's best season (2016), he had had 44 receptions, 348 receiving yards, and 0 TD receptions on 56 targets. Though 9 games this year, Kamara has 55 receptions, 473 receiving yards, and 3 TD receptions. Kamara in 9 games outproduced what Ty Montgomery did in 15 games. And to answer your question, I don't know. I'd probably say Kamara. But the reality is the Packers have never had an elite pass catcher at RB since McCarthy/Rodgers began. FWIW.... Kamara this year.... 77.5 catch % 6.7 ypt Ty for his career 75.3 catch % 6.4 ypt Those aren't significantly different. It appears Kamara statistically isnt a much better receiver per target he just gets targeted significantly more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: @CWood21, let's quit this argument tactic stuff and answer me straight up. Alvin Kamara here. Montgomery there. Who has more receptions? Hell, Eddie Lacy had an elite receiving season in 2014. He averaged two yards more per reception than Kamara is averaging right now. He only had 44 catches. Eddie Lacy was a Freddy Krueger nightmare receiving the ball in 2014 and Rodgers got him the ball only 44 times. LIS, I'd argue Kamara. Because I don't think Ty Montgomery is anything special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: @CWood21, let's quit this argument tactic stuff and answer me straight up. Alvin Kamara here. Montgomery there. Who has more receptions? Hell, Eddie Lacy had an elite receiving season in 2014. He averaged two yards more per reception than Kamara is averaging right now. He only had 44 catches. Eddie Lacy was a Freddy Krueger nightmare receiving the ball in 2014 and Rodgers got him the ball only 44 times. You're the most adamant about keeping McCarthy, but you're also critical of how McCarthy utilizes his players. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Just now, wgbeethree said: FWIW.... Kamara this year.... 77.5 catch % 6.7 ypt Ty for his career 75.3 catch % 6.4 ypt Those aren't significantly different. It appears Kamara statistically isnt a much better receiver per target he just gets targeted significantly more. @CWood21. I'll have more in a second here, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Just now, CWood21 said: You're the most adamant about keeping McCarthy, but you're also critical of how Rodgers utilizes his players. Which is it? Oh, I'll have more for you... I'll have more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, wgbeethree said: FWIW.... Kamara this year.... 77.5 catch % 6.7 ypt Ty for his career 75.3 catch % 6.4 ypt Those aren't significantly different. It appears Kamara statistically isnt a much better receiver per target he just gets targeted significantly more. What makes Kamara so special? It isn't just because he's a great receiving back. But because he's a damn good RB too. He can run AND catch the ball. Any offense could utilzie it. Can Ty Montgomery be as productive as a receiver in New Orleans? Possibly, but is he even half as effective Kamara? Absolutely not. There's no threat of Montgomery as a runner. None. Teams don't respect it. It's like Kuhn as a runner. Teams don't respect them. It makes it easier to defend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 McCarthy as OC in San Francisco: Rookie Gore, Barlow, Hicks - 56 receptions. McCarthy as offensive coordinator for the Saints: McCallister averaged 41 receptions a season, including a 69 reception season. McCarthy with Favre: Green had 46 receptions in 2006. Brandon Miree (we all remember him, right) had 9 catches. Vernond Morency had 16 receptions. Noah Herron had 29 receptions. In 2007, Ryan Grant had a career high 30 receptions. @CWood21, an established history of McCarthy using running backs (not good ones) in the passing game. Suddenly dries up with Rodgers. Coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LacyIsGood Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 I agree that Rodgers has almost has an unwillingness to do simple things, and instead always tries to make a big play. Not throwing some more to RBs is a good example. Another would be the Marcedes Lewis play yesterday. I'm sure a play like is available 3-4 times a game. Simple yes, and categorically a "big play." So take it. Making things more complicated than they have to be just makes no sense. These failures to extend drives has a domino effect on the game. Lack of TOP puts the defense on the field too much, and keeps a good offense like NE on the field too much. It could leave some points off the board, and definitely effects field position.. And the higher % of plays that are throw aways and broken scramble plays gives the defense no reason to give a different look in coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LacyIsGood Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 11 minutes ago, CWood21 said: What makes Kamara so special? It isn't just because he's a great receiving back. But because he's a damn good RB too. He can run AND catch the ball. Any offense could utilzie it. Can Ty Montgomery be as productive as a receiver in New Orleans? Possibly, but is he even half as effective Kamara? Absolutely not. There's no threat of Montgomery as a runner. None. Teams don't respect it. It's like Kuhn as a runner. Teams don't respect them. It makes it easier to defend. I don't think there's a large enough sample size of Ty as a featured back to say that. He had some very nice games and plays. He's probably as good as a runner as James White is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: @CWood21, an established history of McCarthy using running backs (not good ones) in the passing game. Suddenly dries up with Rodgers. Coincidence? Look, I'm not arguing that Rodgers doesn't prefer throwing to his receivers. I'm just arguing that we haven't had a combination of a runner and receiver as Deuce McCalister, Frank Gore, etc. I mean, when was the last time the Packers had a great back who was a good receiver? You'd probably have to go back to Ahman Green. Aaron Jones isn't a very good pass protector and he's an average pass catcher. Jamaal Williams is a good pass blocker and an average pass receiver, but a mediocre runner. Ty Montgomery was a good catcher, but a bad runner and a poor blocker. If you combine Jamaal Williams' pass pro, Aaron Jones' running ability, and Ty Montgomery's pass catching, you'd have the best RB in the league. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, LacyIsGood said: I don't think there's a large enough sample size of Ty as a featured back to say that. He had some very nice games and plays. He's probably as good as a runner as James White is. Because everytime they've expanded his workload, he gets injured. He's not good enough to be a WR, and he's not talented enough to be a RB. He's a replacement level player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 1 hour ago, CWood21 said: How long have there been talk about firing Sean Payton? The last several offseasons there's been talk about whether or not it's time to move on. Last offseason was probably the first time in a few years that there wasn't serious talk about moving on from him. At a certain point, it's time for a fresh voice in the locker room. The speeches get old and stale. That doesn't mean they're bad coaches, it's just time for a change. Right now, there are 8 head coaches who have been hired in 2010 or earlier. Of those 8, only Marvin Lewis and Bill Belichick have been with their respective teams longer. This is the entire point 😂 All that talk about firing Payton and now look at where the Saints are because they didn't actually...fire Payton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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