Extend Mike McCarthy?

[Shanedorf]

5 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

but they certainly aren't short on talent. 

Of course the Packers are short on talent, that's a big part of why they hired a new GM.
This squad is neither talented nor deep enough to play with the top teams in the league week in and week out
This "average" packers squad is the result of drafting late for 8 seasons in a row - and the Saints newfound success is the result of sucking 4 out of 5 seasons in a row and thus reaping the rewards of drafting higher in the order for 4 out of 5 seasons. It ain't some magical mystery, but Packer fans will do flips and twists and every contortion known to man to avoid admitting that inescapable ( and inconvenient)  Truth. 

Many fans would much rather play the blame game and lay it all at somebody's feet than deal with the reality of a league set up to keep teams from making the playoffs every year. Saints couldn't do it, nor the Panthers or the Falcons. 49ers had Harbaugh, then cratered. Rams have sucked for e decade.  Legion of Boom went away, Giant's won 2 SBs and have been bottom- feeders since. Philly hasn't mattered since they lost 4 NFC CGs The Cowboys ? Hahahahaha

You can go through the whole NFC and see it happens to every team. The Packers kept it up longer than most of them ( Viagra) but at some point the Bill comes due. It always comes due.

What has Zimmer accomplished with all of the draft capital and now adding Cousins ? A 1-2 playoff record and the only playoff win he managed took a miracle of biblical proportions...and then they laid down like a cheap Ho in Philly.... with a home SB on the line. Super impressive

Wanna fix the offense ? Then fix the offense. Throw a couple of top draft picks into that side of the ball for a change. But you don't have to fire the HC to do that.
Fire Mac, Keep Mac - neither choice will bring another Title to Titletown without an infusion of talent. Some of that infusion has already happened, but this is a 2 year project as noted by several others. Pick any position group in Green Bay and line em up 1-4 and measure them vs the top teams in the NFC

If that doesn't open your eyes, then nothing will

[{Family Ghost}]

8 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

I really don't see moving on from MM being a good or a bad thing.  I don't think much would change unless Rodgers also changed.

The MM-Rodgers thing isn't great, but it isn't horrible.  There hasn't been enough accountability from MM for the overall failures of this team, but there hasn't been enough credit to MM for the Pettine hire and the success of the running game.  

 

The running game has been good, but underutilized.  It's hard to give McCarthy credit for something he was failing to use enough.  Yesterday he finally struck the right balance .. only took him a month and a half to figure that out.  There's also a decent chance he will abandon it again very soon.

[CWood21]

14 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Of course the Packers are short on talent, that's a big part of why they hired a new GM.
This squad is neither talented nor deep enough to play with the top teams in the league week in and week out
This "average" packers squad is the result of drafting late for 8 seasons in a row - and the Saints newfound success is the result of sucking 4 out of 5 seasons in a row and thus reaping the rewards of drafting higher in the order for 4 out of 5 seasons. It ain't some magical mystery, but Packer fans will do flips and twists and every contortion known to man to avoid admitting that inescapable ( and inconvenient)  Truth. 

We lost by 2 points against the Rams and 14 points to the Redskins and 7 points to the Patriots prior to the last minute TD for the Patriots.  We were competitive in all those games except Washington.  The reason why we are so "average" is because our draft classes from 2014-17 haven't really panned out.  In 2014, we got an up and down starting S (HHCD) who was dealt at the deadline, Davante Adams (arguably a top 10 WR), and Corey Linsley (starting C).  In 2015, we got squat.  In 2016, we got Kenny Clark.  In 2017, we got an injury-plagued corner (Kevin King).  Early in TT's tenure with Green Bay, the Packers were hitting on their mid-round (3rd-5th) at an extraordinary rate.  Over that same period, the best player the Packers got in that range is Corey Linsley.  From 2008-11, we got Jermichael Finley, Josh Sitton, T.J. Lang, Morgan Burnett, and Davon House.

21 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Many fans would much rather play the blame game and lay it all at somebody's feet than deal with the reality of a league set up to keep teams from making the playoffs every year. Saints couldn't do it, nor the Panthers or the Falcons. 49ers had Harbaugh, then cratered. Rams have sucked for e decade.  Legion of Boom went away, Giant's won 2 SBs and have been bottom- feeders since. Philly hasn't mattered since they lost 4 NFC CGs The Cowboys ? Hahahahaha

At some point, you have to put the blame somewhere.  You can't just sit on your hands and hope things change.

21 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

You can go through the whole NFC and see it happens to every team. The Packers kept it up longer than most of them ( Viagra) but at some point the Bill comes due. It always comes due.

What has Zimmer accomplished with all of the draft capital and now adding Cousins ? A 1-2 playoff record and the only playoff win he managed took a miracle of biblical proportions...and then they laid down like a cheap Ho in Philly.... with a home SB on the line. Super impressive

Despite the Vikings being "more talented" than the Packers, they're a whopping 1 game up on the Packers.  In terms of PPG, they're averaging 0.2 less PPG and defensively 1.3 PPG better than the Packers.  But the Packers are talent deprived?  Or are the Vikings underperforming?  I keep hearing about how the Vikings' defense is significantly more talented than the Packers, yet the results say otherwise.

[incognito_man]

53 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I mean, we're talking about one of the best draft class for the Packers and we're sitting 4-4-1 after 9 games.  At this point last year, we were sitting at 5-4 with Rodgers missing four of the last 5 games.  Did our talent level really drop that much from last year?   Or have we started off terribly?  Your using confirmation bias to justify your argument.  We're not 8-1, so is it really that smart to hold onto Mac?

Lol what.

I am not using confirmation bias whatsoever. I think you might be trying to say hindsight?

You are strangely trying to replace reality with a hypothetical instead. That's senseless.

The fact is, after NO got a talent infusion, while keeping a head coach you claim fans were calling to fire during a stretch of mediocrity (which resulted in higher draft capital), they are now 8-1 following a deep playoff run the year before.

Looks like the coach wasn't the problem.

Hmmm

 

[wgbeethree]

34 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

How many backs in the league are a threat with the ball like Kamara is both as a receiver and a runner?  The list isn't very long.  Being great at one thing doesn't make you a good player.  When we ran the shotgun with Kuhn as our backs, what do you think defenses were thinking?  They weren't concerned about Kuhn running the ball on them.  They knew he was Rodgers' personal pass protector.  Teams sat back with 7-8 guys in coverage daring Rodgers to take that checkdown.

Um... about 10+.

We'll agree to disagree.

Gurley, Hunt, Barkley, McCaffery, Elliott, Gordon, Johnson, and Bell immediately come to mind.

I'd probably throw Coleman and Mixon in the mix as well.

Gore, Shady, and Miller pop into my head as guys in the league who learly aren't anymore but were.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

12 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

We lost by 2 points against the Rams and 14 points to the Redskins and 7 points to the Patriots prior to the last minute TD for the Patriots.  We were competitive in all those games except Washington.  The reason why we are so "average" is because our draft classes from 2014-17 haven't really panned out.  In 2014, we got an up and down starting S (HHCD) who was dealt at the deadline, Davante Adams (arguably a top 10 WR), and Corey Linsley (starting C).  In 2015, we got squat.  In 2016, we got Kenny Clark.  In 2017, we got an injury-plagued corner (Kevin King).  Early in TT's tenure with Green Bay, the Packers were hitting on their mid-round (3rd-5th) at an extraordinary rate.  Over that same period, the best player the Packers got in that range is Corey Linsley.  From 2008-11, we got Jermichael Finley, Josh Sitton, T.J. Lang, Morgan Burnett, and Davon House.

 

I agree whole heartedly with this part.

13 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

At some point, you have to put the blame somewhere.  You can't just sit on your hands and hope things change.

Does your first paragraph not answer the question of where to lay the blame?  Is it not on the decision making process of the front office from 2014 to 2017, and not the coach?

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, incognito_man said:

Lol what.

I am not using confirmation bias whatsoever. I think you might be trying to say hindsight?

You are strongly trying to replace reality with a hypothetical instead. That's senseless.

The fact is, after NO got a talent infusion, while keeping a head coach you claim fans were calling to fire during a stretch of mediocrity (which resulted in higher draft capital), they are now 8-1 following a deep playoff run the year before.

Looks like the coach wasn't the problem.

Hmmm

They're 1st in PPG, but 23rd in opponents PPG yet they're 8-1 right now.  Right now, they're +3 in close games right now.  Just for comparison, the Rams are 9-1 with the 3rd best offense and 12th best defense.  They're +5 in close games.  The Chiefs are 9-1 right now and they're 2nd in offense and 16th in defensive PPG.  They're +2 in close games.  If the Saints were 6-3 right now, you probably wouldn't be making this same argument.  And that's assuming you're making the assumption that McCarthy and Payton are on the same level coaching wise, which they aren't.  Sean Payton is one of the best offensive minds in the NFL.  McCarthy isn't.  He's damn good, but he's not on Payton's level.

[CWood21]

3 minutes ago, wgbeethree said:

Um... about 10+.

We'll agree to disagree.

Gurley, Hunt, Barkley, McCaffery, Elliott, Gordon, Johnson, and Bell immediately come to mind.

I'd probably throw Coleman and Mixon in the mix as well.

Gore, Shady, and Miller pop into my head as guys in the league who learly aren't anymore but were.

And look at what teams invested in those players.  Todd Gurley (10th overall), Saquon Barkley (2nd overall), Christian McCaffrey (8th overall), Ezekiel Elliott (4th overall), Melvin and Gordon (15th overall) were all drafted in the top 15.  You have Kareem Hunt (3rd round), David Johnson (3rd), and Le'Veon Bell (2nd round).  From 2013-17, there were 122 RBs drafted.  From that list, only 3 of them that you named weren't drafted in the top 15 picks.  That's a 2.4% success rate.  That's miserable.  Good luck finding an elite back that late in the draft.

[CWood21]

9 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Does your first paragraph not answer the question of where to lay the blame?  Is it not on the decision making process of the front office from 2014 to 2017, and not the coach?

Personally, I don't think talent is the issue on offense.  Maybe you could make an argument that a few positions could stand to be upgraded (i.e. LG and RG), and a few that probably need some more experience (RB and WR).  But in terms of talent level, I don't think talent is the issue.  Right now, we're 13th in PPG.  Prior to last year, we had one season when we weren't top 10 in PPG.  Could the Packers be more talented?  Sure, but I'd argue that isn't the reason for our struggles.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

4 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Personally, I don't think talent is the issue on offense.  Maybe you could make an argument that a few positions could stand to be upgraded (i.e. LG and RG), and a few that probably need some more experience (RB and WR).  But in terms of talent level, I don't think talent is the issue.  Right now, we're 13th in PPG.  Prior to last year, we had one season when we weren't top 10 in PPG.  Could the Packers be more talented?  Sure, but I'd argue that isn't the reason for our struggles.

Fair enough.  I personally feel the inexperience issue is bigger than fans want to admit.  

 

[Shanedorf]

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

You can't just sit on your hands and hope things change.

Actually, I just sit on the couch and watch the games. And drink high quality German beer. Yesterday I grilled some thick-sliced bacon too. It was superb

I disavowed myself of the notion that the Packers need my help with anything - a very long time ago. Its way easier and more enjoyable that way.

CWood - You say we were competitive in all those games, but we should fire the Head Coach anyways -  even though we really haven't got the talent to match up.
That sounds like you're making a case to keep the head coach....hmmmm...that's really an interesting idea. We should have a chat about that some time

And if MM isn't on the level of Sean Payton offensively - then he must be a vastly superior Head Coach because he's never put together 4 out of 5 seasons at 7-9. MM has won more regular season games, more playoff games and more playoff appearances that Sean Payton and Sean Payton has never been Brees-less, Drew's missed 2 games in 13 years. So despite his otherworldly reputation as an offensive guru, Payton just hasn't been able to keep up with MM. 

[CWood21]

4 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

CWood - You say we were competitive in all those games, but we should fire the Head Coach anyways -  even though we really haven't got the talent to match up.
That sounds like you're making a case to keep the head coach....hmmmm...that's really an interesting idea. We should have a chat about that some time

And if MM isn't on the level of Sean Payton offensively - then he must be a vastly superior Head Coach because he's never put together 4 out of 5 seasons at 7-9. MM has won more regular season games, more playoff games and more playoff appearances that Sean Payton and Sean Payton has never been Brees-less, Drew's missed 2 games in 13 years. So despite his otherworldly reputation as an offensive guru, Payton just hasn't been able to keep up with MM. 

And I'm not even arguing that McCarthy needs to get fired.  But if the teams continues down this same path, the question needs to be asked.  Is it totally a personnel issue or is it a coaching issue?  Right now, we're 13th in PPG and 16th in opponents PPG.  We're literally a middle-of-the-pack team right now, which is why are 4-4-1.  Let me ask you this, is this team more talent deprived than the team that started 4-1 going into Minnesota last year?  We have a bit more talent defensively, but offensively I'd ague we're just as talented offensively as we were last year.

[Sasquatch]

15 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Actually, I just sit on the couch and watch the games. And drink high quality German beer. Yesterday I grilled some thick-sliced bacon too. It was superb

I disavowed myself of the notion that the Packers need my help with anything - a very long time ago. Its way easier and more enjoyable that way.

CWood - You say we were competitive in all those games, but we should fire the Head Coach anyways -  even though we really haven't got the talent to match up.
That sounds like you're making a case to keep the head coach....hmmmm...that's really an interesting idea. We should have a chat about that some time

And if MM isn't on the level of Sean Payton offensively - then he must be a vastly superior Head Coach because he's never put together 4 out of 5 seasons at 7-9. MM has won more regular season games, more playoff games and more playoff appearances that Sean Payton and Sean Payton has never been Brees-less, Drew's missed 2 games in 13 years. So despite his otherworldly reputation as an offensive guru, Payton just hasn't been able to keep up with MM. 

 

7 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

And I'm not even arguing that McCarthy needs to get fired.  But if the teams continues down this same path, the question needs to be asked.  Is it totally a personnel issue or is it a coaching issue?  Right now, we're 13th in PPG and 16th in opponents PPG.  We're literally a middle-of-the-pack team right now, which is why are 4-4-1.  Let me ask you this, is this team more talent deprived than the team that started 4-1 going into Minnesota last year?  We have a bit more talent defensively, but offensively I'd ague we're just as talented offensively as we were last year.

Forgive me for jumping into you conversation - you can ignore this post if it's not interesting or compelling to the convo.

Regarding the question - is this team more talent deprived than the team that started the season 4-1 last year?  I just don't know, and it's hard to say because you'd somehow have to create a way of evaluating the strength of the first five games from last year to this year.  In my opinion, it would seem that this team has more talent on both sides of the ball and on special teams over last year, BUT, that doesn't mean we have enough talent - I think we need more at some very key positions to be a threat deep into the post-season. 

So why did we start slower this year than last, with a scosh more talent this year?  Honestly, I've noticed in the past few years that not only does this team take a while to really get clicking, this team also seems to be getting less and less disciplined, especially in the first half of the season.  I haven't done a statistical analysis to prove this - I'm going on visceral feel here.  Even though we started 4-1 last year, I distinctly remember posters commenting about how we always seem to start the season, and especially the first half of games, so slow.  Well, it happened again this year, but with the added element of shoot-yourself-in-the-foot added to the mix.  I can't remember a time (in the last 15 years or so) when boneheaded mistakes had such a costly impact on this team and their record as the mistakes they've made this year.  This speaks to discipline, and that usually gets chalked up to coaching.  Can MM still get these gents to listen and comply, and is his message sound?  I'm not qualified to answer that.

[LacyIsGood]

21 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

And I'm not even arguing that McCarthy needs to get fired.  But if the teams continues down this same path, the question needs to be asked.  Is it totally a personnel issue or is it a coaching issue?  Right now, we're 13th in PPG and 16th in opponents PPG.  We're literally a middle-of-the-pack team right now, which is why are 4-4-1.  Let me ask you this, is this team more talent deprived than the team that started 4-1 going into Minnesota last year?  We have a bit more talent defensively, but offensively I'd ague we're just as talented offensively as we were last year.

2nd year Aaron Jones, Jimmy Graham, MVS...no way.

[incognito_man]

51 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

They're 1st in PPG, but 23rd in opponents PPG yet they're 8-1 right now.  Right now, they're +3 in close games right now.  Just for comparison, the Rams are 9-1 with the 3rd best offense and 12th best defense.  They're +5 in close games.  The Chiefs are 9-1 right now and they're 2nd in offense and 16th in defensive PPG.  They're +2 in close games.  If the Saints were 6-3 right now, you probably wouldn't be making this same argument.  And that's assuming you're making the assumption that McCarthy and Payton are on the same level coaching wise, which they aren't.  Sean Payton is one of the best offensive minds in the NFL.  McCarthy isn't.  He's damn good, but he's not on Payton's level.

Wtf are you even arguing anymore?

Now you state that Payton is one of the best minds in football. If that's the case, why were his teams bad lately? Why are they good again suddenly?

Are you trying to argue with me about something you agree with me on?