MVP Race

[BStanRamFan]

1 minute ago, MookieMonstah said:

I mean you can't just expect him to get a holding call every game. 

I 100% do. Because if you do not show that the you're recognizing the hold you allow it to happen all game.

1 minute ago, Raves said:

So the same can be said about why Cam Jordan and Sheldon Rankins didn't have even bigger nights.  Must've been Refs bias.

I mean they're both very good defensive players. Probowlers. Neither are in the same class at Aaron Donald or command the amount of double teams Donald does..

...I digress as I have contributed to us getting off track on the topic. Mahomes and Brees are 1A. and 1.B, but my 1A. is Mahomes. GL Tonight

[Mid Iowa]

4 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Brees "caused" a loss to the Buccaneers.

I'll wait for a sensible explanation.

[Mid Iowa]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

You criticized Mahomes for the turnovers in his losses (which is fair) but then credit Brees for his completion percentage/yards/TDs in his loss (when Mahomes had those in his losses as well). You’re just not being consistent, why would anyone want to try and reason with that?

All I did was point out that context matters to you for Brees but didn’t matter for Mahomes. That’s hypocrisy, friend. Incoming irrelevant response about how great Drew Brees is...

Do you not get the difference? 7 turnovers is the difference. That's why I criticized one player, and not the other. AND I went on to say, had Brees caused a turnover, I'd be singing a different tune.

I'm no hypocrite, I'm simply pointing out game changing instances that make a difference in "VALUE" 

[jrry32]

4 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

I'll wait for a sensible explanation.

If Mahomes "caused" the loss in a game where he threw 6 TDs and his team lost 54-51, Drew Brees "caused" the loss in a game where his team lost 48-40 and trailed 48-24 in the 4th quarter.

[Soko]

11 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

Do you not get the difference? 7 turnovers is the difference. That's why I criticized one player, and not the other. AND I went on to say, had Brees caused a turnover, I'd be singing a different tune.

I'm no hypocrite, I'm simply pointing out game changing instances that make a difference in "VALUE" 

It’s not about your criticizing of Mahomes’ turnovers. I even said doing so was fair. 

It’s about the fact that you did it, and then praised Brees for his completion percentage/TDs/yards in a loss, when Mahomes also showed up in those departments. 68% completed passes, 10 TDs, 830 yards. 

Twice now, you have actively (attempted) to try to afford standards for Brees that you choose not to apply to Mahomes. That’s being a hypocrite. 

[game3525]

10 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

If Mahomes "caused" the loss in a game where he threw 6 TDs and his team lost 54-51, Drew Brees "caused" the loss in a game where his team lost 48-40 and trailed 48-24 in the 4th quarter.

This is weak.

Mahomes had turnovers that directly lead to points. Brees in that game against Tampa didn't turnover the ball at all. Now, Mahomes wasn't the sole reason why they lost, but his play was bigger factor in them losing then Brees was against Tampa. 

[Soko]

1 hour ago, BStanRamFan said:

Oh you can call a holding on any play in the NFL and I think Donald gets held every play. But to not call ONE the entire game is just shear negligence. So hard to win in NOLA; need the Cowboys to win tonight lol

Eh, most people accept holding occurs on virtually every NFL down. I imagine plenty  of other elite players (present and former) don’t get holding calls every single game. 

Sometimes it’s negligence, but without a video or screenshot of the hold, it’s hard to really call it some sort of bias or anything of that nature. The lack of a holding call against Donald is certainly not enough to prove that.

[jrry32]

9 minutes ago, game3525 said:

This is weak.

Mahomes had turnovers that directly lead to points. Brees in that game against Tampa didn't turnover the ball at all. Now, Mahomes wasn't the sole reason why they lost, but his play was bigger factor in them losing then Brees was against Tampa. 

It's really not at all a weak point if you actually think about it. Which QB hurt his team more?

QB A

35 points

4 passing TDs

3 Ints

5 scoring drives on 10 total drives (with 3 TOs and 2 punts)

QB B

21 points

2 passing TDs

0 Ints

3 scoring drives on 10 total drives (with 0 TOs and 7 punts)

Y'all are looking at the game in an awfully simplistic manner, and I am going to point out the silliness of it. Mahomes was in a shootout. Did his turnovers hurt his team? Yes. However, he was also the guy keeping them in a game where his defense could not get stops. The Chiefs ultimately lost 54-51. They are the ONLY team in NFL history to lose a game where they scored 50+ points (IIRC). Claiming that Mahomes "caused" the loss is both ignorant and foolish. Claiming that Brees "caused" the loss against TB would also be ignorant and foolish.

My point in doing that is to illustrate that Brees failing to move the offense (causing a punt) did them no better in a shootout where their defense couldn't get stops than Mahomes' turnovers. In a game where you have to score on damn near every possession because the other team will, a punt is nearly as problematic as a turnover. Neither guy "caused" the loss. The defense is to blame for the loss in both those games. Trying to elevate Brees over Mahomes because the Saints punted instead of turning it over is just silly.

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, BStanRamFan said:

Oh that same Rams game vs the Saints where the NFL's leader in being double teamed and leader in Sacks didn't get ONE holding penalty called the entire game? (nor did Suh)

Now you can call me biased .

I think there were bigger fish to fry with the officiating in that game.

[game3525]

3 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

It's really not at all a weak point if you actually think about it. Which QB hurt his team more?

QB A

35 points

4 passing TDs

3 Ints

5 scoring drives on 10 total drives (with 3 TOs and 2 punts)

QB B

21 points

2 passing TDs

0 Ints

3 scoring drives on 10 total drives (with 0 TOs and 7 punts)

Y'all are looking at the game in an awfully simplistic manner, and I am going to point out the silliness of it. Mahomes was in a shootout. Did his turnovers hurt his team? Yes. However, he was also the guy keeping them in a game where his defense could not get stops. The Chiefs ultimately lost 54-51. They are the ONLY team in NFL history to lose a game where they scored 50+ points (IIRC). Claiming that Mahomes "caused" the loss is both ignorant and foolish. Claiming that Brees "caused" the loss against TB would also be ignorant and foolish.

My point in doing that is to illustrate that Brees failing to move the offense (causing a punt) did them no better in a shootout where their defense couldn't get stops than Mahomes' turnovers. In a game where you have to score on damn near every possession because the other team will, a punt is nearly as problematic as a turnover. Neither guy "caused" the loss. The defense is to blame for the loss in both those games. Trying to elevate Brees over Mahomes because the Saints punted instead of turning it over is just silly.

This would all be fine if Mahomes turnovers didn't lead to points. If Mahomes turnovers were just arm punts then I wouldn't care much. But you can't spot teams points in that type of game and he did. 

[jrry32]

12 minutes ago, game3525 said:

This would all be fine if Mahomes turnovers didn't lead to points. If Mahomes turnovers were just arm punts then I wouldn't care much. But you can't spot teams points in that type of game and he did. 

In games like LA-KC, punts lead to points too. Look at the TB-NO game. They punted three times (and had two TOs). TB scored TDs on the drive following two of the three punts. When your defense can't get stops, punting is a death sentence.

[Raves]

14 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

In games like LA-KC, punts lead to points too. Look at the TB-NO game. They punted three times (and had two TOs). TB scored TDs on the drive following two of the three punts. When your defense can't get stops, punting is a death sentence.

Those turnovers weren't Drew Brees though.  Also the 3 punts you can't put all on Brees either when he only had 8 incompletions the entire game, unless you think all 8 incompletions came on those 3 drives.  If Mahomes put up those same numbers and instead of Mahomes having the 5 turnovers, they came from fumbles from his WRs and RBs, then you don't blame Mahomes for the loss because he literally did everything he could for his team to win.  But since he was the one involved in 5 turnovers, including 2 that directly led to 14 points on the board, you can accurately blame Mahomes for the loss, even with everything else he did to win the game.  Obviously his defense deserves some of the blame too since they could barely do anything against the Rams offense, but they only gave up like 41 points without counting the two turnovers that were returned for TDs, more than enough for the Chiefs to still win the game otherwise who scored 51?

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, Raves said:

Those turnovers weren't Drew Brees though.  Also the 3 punts you can't put all on Brees either when he only had 8 incompletions the entire game, unless you think all 8 incompletions came on those 3 drives.

On those three drives, they ran 10 total plays. 9 of the 10 were passing plays. Y'all are awfully quick to blame Mahomes and awfully quick to absolve Brees.

Quote

If Mahomes put up those same numbers and instead of Mahomes having the 5 turnovers, they came from fumbles from his WRs and RBs, then you don't blame Mahomes for the loss because he literally did everything he could for his team to win.  But since he was the one involved in 5 turnovers, including 2 that directly led to 14 points on the board, you can accurately blame Mahomes for the loss, even with everything else he did to win the game.

Wrong. Blaming Mahomes is as logical as blaming Brees. When you lose a game 54-51, the QB isn't the guy to blame. The same is true when you lose a game 48-40. Now, if you want to play the blame game, you can't absolve Brees and indict Mahomes. In a game where the defense can't get a stop, a three-and-out generally gets you the same results that a turnover does. We saw that in the NO-TB game.

Quote

Obviously his defense deserves some of the blame too since they could barely do anything against the Rams offense, but they only gave up like 41 points without counting the two turnovers that were returned for TDs, more than enough for the Chiefs to still win the game otherwise who scored 51?

"Only" gave up 41 points. LOL.

[Raves]

3 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

On those three drives, they ran 10 total plays. 9 of the 10 were passing plays. Y'all are awfully quick to blame Mahomes and awfully quick to absolve Brees.

Wrong. Blaming Mahomes is as logical as blaming Brees. When you lose a game 54-51, the QB isn't the guy to blame. The same is true when you lose a game 48-40. Now, if you want to play the blame game, you can't absolve Brees and indict Mahomes. In a game where the defense can't get a stop, a three-and-out generally gets you the same results that a turnover does. We saw that in the NO-TB game.

"Only" gave up 41 points. LOL.

Oklahoma "Only" gives up like 47 points a game but they score more than that every game so they win.  The defense limited the Rams offense to few enough points that the Chiefs would've won based on the points they scored.  If your offense scores 51 and your defense gives up 40, you should win right?  So what happened with that game?  Why did the Chiefs not win when their offense put up 11 more points than the Rams offense?

[tyler735]

Yikes! Rams fans in here a month later talking about officiating in the Saints game like this: