Alex Smith requires emergency surgery; recovery time 6-8 months

[MKnight82]

8 hours ago, Slateman said:

Murphy was never drafted to be a pure edge rusher and the only reason he started at linebacker was because of injuries. He was supposed to be a DE in the 3-4

Smith was the edge rusher. He was drafted the same year Orakpo left. He was the defacto replacement. 

The Redskins have gotten similar production from Smith that the Titans got out of Orakpp.

Oh and there is a case to be made that Smith was elite last year: https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/need-know-its-science-preston-smith-one-nfls-top-pass-rushers

Preston Smith is not elite. 

[Slateman]

7 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

Preston Smith is not elite. 

Of course not. But neither was Orakpo. That's why I was okay with letting him walk.

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, Slateman said:

Of course not. But neither was Orakpo. That's why I was okay with letting him walk.

No one is saying Orakpo was elite, no one has ever uttered those words in this forum, but that still doesn’t mean that Preston Smith is better than Orakpo was when Orakpo was here. 

Preston Smith’s effort has been called into question since he was drafted - that was never a question with Orakpo - Orakpo and Kerrigan were basically equal as pass rushers during their times in DC and Preston Smith has never been mentioned being even close to Kerrigan as a pass rusher.

I understand you didn’t like Orakpo and wanted him to be something he was never going to be, but I don’t understand taking a position that he’s been replaced since we didn’t re-sign him, because it’s blatantly obvious he hasn’t been!

That’s why most Redskins fans and most analysts who know this team best have wanted the Redskins to once again draft a ROLB high again in the draft, because Preston Smith is inconsistent.

[MKnight82]

37 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I understand you didn’t like Orakpo and wanted him to be something he was never going to be, but I don’t understand taking a position that he’s been replaced since we didn’t re-sign him, because it’s blatantly obvious he hasn’t been!

What is the purpose of bringing up replacing a player that himself needed to be replaced?  Why are we even talking about Orakpo?

[Slateman]

7 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

No one is saying Orakpo was elite, no one has ever uttered those words in this forum, but that still doesn’t mean that Preston Smith is better than Orakpo was when Orakpo was here. 

Preston Smith’s effort has been called into question since he was drafted - that was never a question with Orakpo - Orakpo and Kerrigan were basically equal as pass rushers during their times in DC and Preston Smith has never been mentioned being even close to Kerrigan as a pass rusher.

I understand you didn’t like Orakpo and wanted him to be something he was never going to be, but I don’t understand taking a position that he’s been replaced since we didn’t re-sign him, because it’s blatantly obvious he hasn’t been!

That’s why most Redskins fans and most analysts who know this team best have wanted the Redskins to once again draft a ROLB high again in the draft, because Preston Smith is inconsistent.

You're misunderstanding the context of this discussion. What Orakpo did while he was here was irrelevant, because most of it was done when he was younger. We're talking about what Orakpo was going to do during any contract extension. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of football could see Orakpo was losing a step. He never developed the pass rush repertoire needed to take the next  step to become one of the upper tier rushers.

Orakpo was always going to be another Melvin Ingram, Dee Ford, or Bruce Irvin. Good but not great. That pass rusher who did one thing well and really didn't do anything else well enough. Rush up field and try to get ot the QB off the edge. He simply wasn't worth the money. He was never going to get to the next tier of a Von Miller or Justin Houston. Heck, he isn't even as good as Kerrigan.

The team needs an actual outside linebacker. Someone who can rush the passer, play the run, and not be a total liability in pass coverage. But failing that, you can replace the pass rush and Smith has done that. Particularly when you factor in Orakpo's decline.

It doesn't matter what Orakpo did while he was here. It matters what Orakpo did with his 31 million dollar contract. Suffice to say, he didn't do anything that Smith didn't do here for 5 million. McCloughan called it and he was absolutely right.

[Woz]

As interesting as a multipage argument about a guy who hasn't been on the roster in over four years is, perhaps we should let it go?

[turtle28]

On 12/17/2018 at 10:44 AM, MKnight82 said:

What is the purpose of bringing up replacing a player that himself needed to be replaced?  Why are we even talking about Orakpo?

Skins212689 mentioned a few pages back when talking about the defense that we have never had a true 3-4 OLB player/prospect which is just a clear misunderstanding of what a 3-4 OLB actually is. A 3-4 OLB is a converted 4-3 DE who is athletic enough to rush the passer, play the run and play some coverage in short zones.

I stated how both Orakpo and Kerrigan have been OLBs since they were drafted and Orakpo was even a 4-3 SLB as a rookie in 2009. I also pointed out that they may have been better in their careers as 4-3 DEs, but we have nothing to judge that on because they’ve only been OLBs their entire careers. Both have gotten near & over double digit sacks as OLBs since they were drafted.

Then naturally, that morphed into a discussion on how Slateman (the leader of the Orakpo Hater Club) thought Orakpo wasn’t good in DC and that Psmith is better and has replaced Orakpo.

I mean Slateman won’t even acknowledge that the Redskins front office has been trying to upgrade Orakpo since 2015. 

1. Allen drafted Murphy to try to replace Orakpo in 2014, that failed!

2. McCloughan sighed Galette and drafted PSmith to try to upgrade ROLB in 2015, so far that hasn’t worked either.

3. 2017 Allen drafted Ryan Anderson to try to upgrade OLB once again and thus far thatbhasbt worked.

4. 2018 Allen signed McPhee to upgrade OLB again and he hasn’t exactly been an upgrade either, just a JAG.

I really wish Galette hadn’t turned down the Redskins good and fair offer in March, the two have needed each other this year.

[naptownskinsfan]

On 12/17/2018 at 10:44 AM, MKnight82 said:

What is the purpose of bringing up replacing a player that himself needed to be replaced?  Why are we even talking about Orakpo?

No clue.  Though I liked him when he was here, he's a player who is good for you while playing through his rookie contract, but due to how teams value pass-rushers, is going to get paid way more than he is worth.  The same is true for Preston Smith, which is how i think we got here.  

[turtle28]

On 12/17/2018 at 10:52 AM, Slateman said:

You're misunderstanding the context of this discussion. What Orakpo did while he was here was irrelevant, because most of it was done when he was younger. We're talking about what Orakpo was going to do during any contract extension. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of football could see Orakpo was losing a step. He never developed the pass rush repertoire needed to take the next  step to become one of the upper tier rushers.

Orakpo was always going to be another Melvin Ingram, Dee Ford, or Bruce Irvin. Good but not great. That pass rusher who did one thing well and really didn't do anything else well enough. Rush up field and try to get ot the QB off the edge. He simply wasn't worth the money. He was never going to get to the next tier of a Von Miller or Justin Houston. Heck, he isn't even as good as Kerrigan.

The team needs an actual outside linebacker. Someone who can rush the passer, play the run, and not be a total liability in pass coverage. But failing that, you can replace the pass rush and Smith has done that. Particularly when you factor in Orakpo's decline.

It doesn't matter what Orakpo did while he was here. It matters what Orakpo did with his 31 million dollar contract. Suffice to say, he didn't do anything that Smith didn't do here for 5 million. McCloughan called it and he was absolutely right.

No you’re misunderstanding. I started the discussion. It’s my context.

We don’t have an OLB now, and never have had one that’s good in coverage. PSmith loafs a lot, this is just not something new, he’s had the issue with his motor since his rookie year and it hasn’t gotten better.

We’re just not going to agree about this. 

[turtle28]

6 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

No clue.  Though I liked him when he was here, he's a player who is good for you while playing through his rookie contract, but due to how teams value pass-rushers, is going to get paid way more than he is worth.  The same is true for Preston Smith, which is how i think we got here.  

You have to go back a few pages to know his name came up.

[Slateman]

6 hours ago, turtle28 said:

No you’re misunderstanding. I started the discussion. It’s my context.

We don’t have an OLB now, and never have had one that’s good in coverage. PSmith loafs a lot, this is just not something new, he’s had the issue with his motor since his rookie year and it hasn’t gotten better.

We’re just not going to agree about this. 

Lol, loafs ... so Orakpo's excuse was he just sucked at anything that wasnt speed rushing the QB.

 

"What we doin out there"

[turtle28]

6 hours ago, Slateman said:

Lol, loafs ... so Orakpo's excuse was he just sucked at anything that wasnt speed rushing the QB.

 

"What we doin out there"

Orakpo was good vs the run.

I hate to do this but this is why it’s perceived that I don’t like Ryan Kerrigan. Orakpo & Kerrigan were compared a lot in their time as Redskins.

Orakpo: athletic freak, speed rusher -didn’t have a counter move - except sometimes he would take a bull rush or hard inside rush instead or a speed rush outside, he got 8.5 to 11 sacks (when healthy) as a Redskin vs good to great LTs in 2009, 2010, 2011 & 2013.

Kerrigan: slower, not particularly nimble/athletic/good in space but had an incredibly high motor, didn’t have a speed rush, struggles to turn the corner, best moves were/are a bull rush and a rip inside move off of it. Rushed against RTs who mostly were average or worse at pass blocking. Didn’t get over 9 sacks in a season his first 3 seasons. Once Rak was gone and taking some sack stats away bc Rak usually got to QBs first, Kerrigan started getting double digit sack seasons.

Guys Allen & McCloughan signed/drafted to try to replace Rak:

Preston Smith: athletic for his size, has no speed rush, has the same moves as Kerrigan, also struggles to turn the corner (something a young Orakpo never had a problem with), has a questionable motor, loafs at times, effort has been called into question since he got here, like Kerrigan makes interceptions when in shallow zone and the QB throws it near him.

Murphy: Poor man’s Ryan Kerrigan, failed miserably at ROLB in the 2nd half of 2014 & in 2015 trying to replace Rak at ROLB rushing against LTs. Was good in 2016 used mostly as a DE in 4 man nickel fronts and rushing at LOLB/LDE against RTs. I still is think he should’ve been made into a 3-4 DE since the day he was drafted and we misused him in 2014 & 15.

Galette: best pure pass rusher out of all the 3-4 OLBs the Redskins have had this decade. It’s a shame he got two achillies tears in 2015 & 16 bc I do think he would’ve been an upgrade over Orakpo. Galette had a speed rush like Orakpo and a multitude of counter moves off of that - unlike Orakpo. Galette had a speed rush, spin move, an up and under, a rip move and could bull rush and go up the field and cut back under the OT like Kerrigan uses a lot.

Its a real shame he didn’t get more snaps last year and that he was foolish and turned down the Redskins contract offer in March bc we certainly could’ve used him as a situational pass rusher this year. 

What did I miss?

[Slateman]

3 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Orakpo was good vs the run.

I hate to do this but this is why it’s perceived that I don’t like Ryan Kerrigan. Orakpo & Kerrigan were compared a lot in their time as Redskins.

Orakpo: athletic freak, speed rusher -didn’t have a counter move - except sometimes he would take a bull rush or hard inside rush instead or a speed rush outside, he got 8.5 to 11 sacks (when healthy) as a Redskin vs good to great LTs in 2009, 2010, 2011 & 2013.

Kerrigan: slower, not particularly nimble/athletic/good in space but had an incredibly high motor, didn’t have a speed rush, struggles to turn the corner, best moves were/are a bull rush and a rip inside move off of it. Rushed against RTs who mostly were average or worse at pass blocking. Didn’t get over 9 sacks in a season his first 3 seasons. Once Rak was gone and taking some sack stats away bc Rak usually got to QBs first, Kerrigan started getting double digit sack seasons.

Guys Allen & McCloughan signed/drafted to try to replace Rak:

Preston Smith: athletic for his size, has no speed rush, has the same moves as Kerrigan, also struggles to turn the corner (something a young Orakpo never had a problem with), has a questionable motor, loafs at times, effort has been called into question since he got here, like Kerrigan makes interceptions when in shallow zone and the QB throws it near him.

Murphy: Poor man’s Ryan Kerrigan, failed miserably at ROLB in the 2nd half of 2014 & in 2015 trying to replace Rak at ROLB rushing against LTs. Was good in 2016 used mostly as a DE in 4 man nickel fronts and rushing at LOLB/LDE against RTs. I still is think he should’ve been made into a 3-4 DE since the day he was drafted and we misused him in 2014 & 15.

Galette: best pure pass rusher out of all the 3-4 OLBs the Redskins have had this decade. It’s a shame he got two achillies tears in 2015 & 16 bc I do think he would’ve been an upgrade over Orakpo. Galette had a speed rush like Orakpo and a multitude of counter moves off of that - unlike Orakpo. Galette had a speed rush, spin move, an up and under, a rip move and could bull rush and go up the field and cut back under the OT like Kerrigan uses a lot.

Its a real shame he didn’t get more snaps last year and that he was foolish and turned down the Redskins contract offer in March bc we certainly could’ve used him as a situational pass rusher this year. 

What did I miss?

Orakpo was trash against the run. Unless you can provide proof otherwise, I stand by my point. During his tenure, Washington was middle of the road, at best, against the run. The year they were the best was his rookie season, where Orakpo was pretty much  just a situational passrusher.

 

Kerrigan - Outproduced Orakpo. Kerrigan since Orakpo left: 44.5 sacks, 10 forced fumbles (Orkapo: 26 sacks, 6 forced fumbles). You can try to argue about going against LTs all you want, but its fairly irrelevant in today's NFL. Getting to the QB is all that matters. Or are you going to argue that Aaron Donald isn't as good as Orakpo because he doesn't go up against the opposing team's best offensive lineman?

Smith - Produced at the same level Orakpo has since Orakpo left. The part you keep leaving out is that Orakpo was declining his last couple seasons here. He averaged, for his career here, about 9 sacks per 16 games played. Over half the teams in the NFL have a guy, who is producing at the same level, or better, than Orakpo did here. His athleticism was declining and he was NEVER healthy here in DC as a starter.

Murphy - Was never intended to be an edge rusher. He was a role player who wanted/should have been playing 3-4 DE.

Galette - Never healthy. Never performed when he was healthy. Never cost the Redskins anything significant.

 

[turtle28]

I don’t think I can have a conversation about Orakpo with someone who can’t or doesn’t know the basic things about Orakpo’s career & how run defense is a team stat. An OLB could be good vs the run but if the DL aren’t good it doesn’t matter.

1. As a rookie in 2009, Orakpo was not JUST a situational pass rusher, he was a 4-3 Strong Side Linebacker who put his hand as a pass rusher when we went to the nickel package on 3rd & long.

2. Orakpo was strong against the run. The tape shows this, he can’t make up for the fact that we didn’t have a true NT during his entire time in DC and that our two starting 3-4 DEs (Bowen & Cofield) got hurt and never were the same after they got hurt in 2012.

You keep saying “Kerrigan has outpeoduced Orakpo since Orakpo left” well that was never my point. My point about the two since forever is when they were together as Redskins, Orakpo was better. 

Orakpo used to get to the QB quicker than Kerrigan when they were on the field together, and when Orakpo left, Kerrigan then became the person who got to the QB fastest over the other 5 OLBs we’ve signed/drafted since 2014 who’ve all been disappointments. 

So of course Kerrigan’s sack stats were going to go up.

[Slateman]

1. Orakpo did not play full time at linebacker in his rookie season.

2. He wasn't. If he was, prove it. I'm still waiting.

3. Orakpo wasn't better than Kerrigan. Kerrigan was better simply by virtue of actually being on the field the whole time.  And my point is that we had two options: 1) Re-sign Orakpo to a big deal and retain him and hope that he didn't continue his decline; 2) Let Orakpo walk and replace him via the draft and free agency for less money. They chose option 2. They have easily replaced Orakpo's 2015-Present performance with their free agency moves, at a fraction of the cost (2 million in cap hit vs 7+ million). Had Orakpo gone on to produce like he did here, maybe. But he hasn't. He's been as close to 100% healthy as he could be, and he simply hasn't produced. Because his entire game is based on his ability to run around the opposing tackle and he isnt' as athletic as he was in 2009-2011.

4. If Orakpo is getting to the QB faster in Tennessee than Kerrigan is getting to the QB in Washington, Orakpo should have more sacks, shouldn't he? Orakpo averaged FEWER sacks per 16 games played while he and Kerrigan played together. (8.2 sacks per 16 games played vs 8.9 sacks per 16 games played). So exactly who was getting to the QB quicker? Seems more like Kerrigan became a better pass rusher and Orakpo never developed anything beyond trying to run past the blocker.