tomlin lovers

[warfelg]

Because Colbert not making a change to the coach means he's also OK with what Tomlin is doing, so if you fire Tomlin but not Colbert, you aren't really changing the team, your shuffling chairs on the Titanic's deck.

 

To use your analogy, firing Tomlin but not Colbert would be like the CEO firing the VP or Finance for a bad quarter financially.

[JustPlainNasty]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Well he's been doing bad in attaining talent since ~2009, so if you are given subpar players, what type of performance do you expect.

This looks to be now 4 drafts in 8 years that no players will see a second contract with us.  But keep blaming Tomlin because he's above Colbert.

I get it, you have an emotional attachment to Tomlin for whatever reason. I root for Tomlin to do well, but if I'm not questioning these things about him Im being blinded. 

Again.. NO ONE questions whether this team has talent. The secondary has been an issue, however THE #1 Reason Tomlin is criticized is because his team has more talent than any (The job that Colbert has done.)

At the end of the day I hope Tomlin gets it together, whatever it takes. If you need to get rid of a HOF QB or a potential HOF talent evaluator if thats what it takes than do it. But no excuses. If you want to blame the secondary coach you hired or the last one even though thats your coaching field of expertise, then go ahead, but fix it.  

[warfelg]

I’m not attached to Tomlin. 

But I do prefer to hold EVERYONE accountable, not one person. Something that a large chunk are failing to grasp. 

 

Also....drop the more talent than anyone charade. Outside of 6 guys we have a large group of JAGs, including 4 high round picks on defense. 

[Dcash4]

Tomlin is the head coach. Tomlin has a background as a defensive coordinator. Tomlin has a specialty through the NFL on defensive backs. Tomlin has some form of say on personnel, the draft, how players progress, and how they will operate the roster. 

Our offense is star studded across the board with all above average, well above average, and a few elite talents. 

In terms of starters: Our defense has a quality of defensive line talent: one elite, one well above average and another, who I would put above average, but I’ll settle for average. 

Our linebacker core, if not for an unfortunate accident would have: a decent starting duo at inside linebacker, an up and coming potential star OLB, and one hole. 

Our defensive backfield: a nightmare. 

This is not a “down with Tomlin” post, but I do not understand the pitchforks being out for Colbert. Does he deserve some level of blame? Sure. Is he perfect? Absolutely not. Find me the NFL teams that are and then find me the teams that have similar drafting success constantly in the mid to late 20’s and continual roster building success while being strapped against the cap. 

Colbert has a part to play, but isn’t it even in the RELM OF POSSIBILITY that the head coach/former DC/ defensive backs coach....has a say in that particular part of the teams roster construction and drafting process that has failed to recognize talent and failed to coach to improvement in any form the most? 

[JustPlainNasty]

17 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I’m not attached to Tomlin. 

But I do prefer to hold EVERYONE accountable, not one person. Something that a large chunk are failing to grasp. 

 

Also....drop the more talent than anyone charade. Outside of 6 guys we have a large group of JAGs, including 4 high round picks on defense. 

Hold everyone accountable. If they fired Tomlin all the coaches will go too, if thats what you are suggesting about spreading out accountability.  Do us all a favor and show us the GM that has been better at selecting talent while picking regularly in the 20s for the majority of his tenure. 

Again, I dont want Tomlin fired, but im supposed to be worried about spreading out the blame, so fire them all equally. 

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

This is not a “down with Tomlin” post, but I do not understand the pitchforks being out for Colbert. Does he deserve some level of blame? Sure. Is he perfect? Absolutely not. Find me the NFL teams that are and then find me the teams that have similar drafting success constantly in the mid to late 20’s and continual roster building success while being strapped against the cap. 

Colbert has a part to play, but isn’t it even in the RELM OF POSSIBILITY that the head coach/former DC/ defensive backs coach....has a say in that particular part of the teams roster construction and drafting process that has failed to recognize talent and failed to coach to improvement in any form the most? 

Here’s the thing:

i have no problem with what you are saying. I’ve never said Tomlin is blameless. 

I’ve held the position that everyone holds share in the blame of the failures of the team. So if you are going to fire someone over the failures, fire everyone as they all hold some part of it. 

I personally don’t think that ditching Tomlin, not making wholesale changes, keeping the FO/Scouts is suddenly going to make drafting of certain areas (TE, LB, D.B., QB) better. Because I. The end you would still have the same scouts making the same assessments. Still have the same GM giving the same grades. Does what they are looking for change? Sure. 

Maybe with Tomlin our and a new HC we go back to looking for run support zone DBs (something we have no problem finding). Maybe they push further for athletes that can man cover in space (we struggle to find those). 

As much as Tomlin can have a say it’s still on the FO side to finD the players the he’s asking for, and it seems as if they aren’t doing the greatest job of it. 

[JustPlainNasty]

From the beginning of my post here I just asked that Tomlin look in the mirror and make some changes have more accountability for himself. Leaders/winners hold themselves accountable, whatever it takes to get them to where they need to be, if its not done, its something they could do better, its something they could change. If thats fire somebody on your staff then fire them.  

[JustPlainNasty]

The Steelers for whatever reasons have struggled even before Colbert to find and develop DB talent. Woodson was a no brainer, but corners opposite have seemed to have been not of great importance. 

[warfelg]

3 minutes ago, JustPlainNasty said:

If they fired Tomlin all the coaches will go too, if thats what you are suggesting about spreading out accountability.

And what’s the likelihood of that? Outside of Haley, Bradley, and Karl Dunbar, just about everyone was someone with previous ties to the team. The Rooney’s have never completely cleaned house. 

Teams that regularly pick low and maintain high levels of talent?

Ravens, Patriots, Saints, any Andy Reid coaches team, Seahawks. 

Whats something all of those teams have in common? A lack of fear of moving in the draft. 

And except for the Patriots, each of those teams had losing records and didn’t fire the coach. 

[JustPlainNasty]

Senquez Golson was a horrible pick. Id gladly take a spot in the scouting dept.

[JustPlainNasty]

1 minute ago, warfelg said:

And what’s the likelihood of that? Outside of Haley, Bradley, and Karl Dunbar, just about everyone was someone with previous ties to the team. The Rooney’s have never completely cleaned house. 

Teams that regularly pick low and maintain high levels of talent?

Ravens, Patriots, Saints, any Andy Reid coaches team, Seahawks. 

Whats something all of those teams have in common? A lack of fear of moving in the draft. 

And except for the Patriots, each of those teams had losing records and didn’t fire the coach. 

Ravens havent made the playoffs in 3 years until our failing this year. Patriots move around exceptionally, draft not so great vs the opportunities they have, Their roster is depleted just they have the GOAT at qb. Saints had the worst Defense  and poor Oline for several years. One draft corrected a lot of ills. 

[warfelg]

Just now, JustPlainNasty said:

The Steelers for whatever reasons have struggled even before Colbert to find and develop DB talent. Woodson was a no brainer, but corners opposite have seemed to have been not of great importance. 

???

Washington, Townsend, Taylor, Polamalu, Hope, McFadden, Lewis, Gay, Lake.

They can do it. 

But look at something there. The quality drafting of DBs ended in 2008, about the time the passing game opened up, rules on downfield contact, and when man defense all changed. But a majority of our scouts are still the same. 

[Dcash4]

5 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Here’s the thing:

i have no problem with what you are saying. I’ve never said Tomlin is blameless. 

I’ve held the position that everyone holds share in the blame of the failures of the team. So if you are going to fire someone over the failures, fire everyone as they all hold some part of it. 

I personally don’t think that ditching Tomlin, not making wholesale changes, keeping the FO/Scouts is suddenly going to make drafting of certain areas (TE, LB, D.B., QB) better. Because I. The end you would still have the same scouts making the same assessments. Still have the same GM giving the same grades. Does what they are looking for change? Sure. 

Maybe with Tomlin our and a new HC we go back to looking for run support zone DBs (something we have no problem finding). Maybe they push further for athletes that can man cover in space (we struggle to find those). 

As much as Tomlin can have a say it’s still on the FO side to finD the players the he’s asking for, and it seems as if they aren’t doing the greatest job of it. 

I really don’t disagree, but its largely because we don’t know. I look for things that make sense to me. 

It makes sense that with Tomlins background - he has taken control of that particular part of the defense. What he is lookin for, what qualities defines good to him, what attributes he determines to be vital - that, along with collaboration with Colbert, gets passed to the scouts. From there, it makes sense to me that Tomlin was part of the reason why we didn’t draft DBs high for the longest time. Why? Because Tomlin believes in himself as a coach and instructor. “I can coach them up”. After years of failure, we transition to drafting higher DBs, only that where we are in the draft so often, we reach for players with the attributes desired, higher ceiling, lower floor - because “I can coach them up”. 

It just makes total sense to me that Tomlin is the one pounding the table for these failed DBs - the reaches, the athletically and physically inclined but football illiterate. It makes sense that you would pound the table for the high ceilings late in the first round when most elite talent is gone and say I can coach them to their elite potential. 

Colbert has had success drafting offense, he has had success drafting DL, he has had success drafting linebackers (for the most part) - he has success everywhere BUT defensive back....where Tomlin is most likely the implied expert in the room. I just can’t look at the full roster of pieces he has put together, the glaring hole being the head coaches background, and say my god he needs to go. 

Changes need to be made- that’s for sure. I think the best strategy is finding an ex head coach defensive coordinator and letting them run that room, but we will see how things progress. HCs rarely like to have control taken from them. 

[warfelg]

4 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

I really don’t disagree, but its largely because we don’t know. I look for things that make sense to me. 

It makes sense that with Tomlins background - he has taken control of that particular part of the defense. What he is lookin for, what qualities defines good to him, what attributes he determines to be vital - that, along with collaboration with Colbert, gets passed to the scouts. From there, it makes sense to me that Tomlin was part of the reason why we didn’t draft DBs high for the longest time. Why? Because Tomlin believes in himself as a coach and instructor. “I can coach them up”. After years of failure, we transition to drafting higher DBs, only that where we are in the draft so often, we reach for players with the attributes desired, higher ceiling, lower floor - because “I can coach them up”. 

It just makes total sense to me that Tomlin is the one pounding the table for these failed DBs - the reaches, the athletically and physically inclined but football illiterate. It makes sense that you would pound the table for the high ceilings late in the first round when most elite talent is gone and say I can coach them to their elite potential. 

Colbert has had success drafting offense, he has had success drafting DL, he has had success drafting linebackers (for the most part) - he has success everywhere BUT defensive back....where Tomlin is most likely the implied expert in the room. I just can’t look at the full roster of pieces he has put together, the glaring hole being the head coaches background, and say my god he needs to go. 

Changes need to be made- that’s for sure. I think the best strategy is finding an ex head coach defensive coordinator and letting them run that room, but we will see how things progress. HCs rarely like to have control taken from them. 

The thing is, and why I come back to scouts, is Tomlin cannot be expected to keep up with the season long grind that is the draft.  Like I've said before, half the staff of scouts is already looking at the 2020 draft and guys that are about to be seniors.  

And you are right on one point:

Tomlin as told Colbert what he wants in a DB, Colbert has told the scouts what to look for.  The scouts aren't bringing back reports that are best for that.

But like I pointed out above.  We've still got scouts this team employed in the 90's, and it seems as though they aren't sure what to look for in the more modern players.

If you want to fault Tomlin for anything with the reach, the "coach em up attitude" I would point to the fact Tomlin has been on record saying he prefers to draft underclassmen because he believes then he's getting them a year sooner into development.  And I'm on record saying I hate that.  Sometimes you are better getting the high floor, low ceiling senior player that you know what to get.

And to me it's more than about where the glaring hole is.  We give out too many big contracts that we have to rely on cheap depth.  I mean, think of this: Our OL was the highest paid OL in the league, and for stretches of the season is was 2 UDFA's that pushed us through making less than $750,000.  Now those guys did great.  But start applying that elsewhere.  Brown was out the last game, and it was James Washington and Darius Hayward-Bey taking snaps as the #2 WR.  Conner is down, and it's Stephen Ridley and Jaylen Samuels (Who's never been a runner at RB) that get the snaps.  God forbid if Haden went out.

[warfelg]

And hate to say it: but if you lean on your coach to make the decision for you that much, maybe you shouldn't be GM.

Yes it is one thing I HATE about the Steelers.  They have an 'everyone has a voice' method when it comes to the draft.  That's terrible.  They need to have one guy (Colbert) make the call, but allow coaches to have the input on who they want.  Colbert has said in the past that he lets positional coaches make late round picks.  It's why we have success with certain positions (WR, RB) and massive failures at others (LB, CB, S). 

I mean, this is why I have the stance that I do.  Is it Tomlin's fault the secondary is bad....sure!  But guess what...Colbert is an enabler of that by not being authoritarian at times and saying "No we aren't taking him".  Colbert has had an "our board is our board" attitude long before Tomlin showed up, so guess what that means, these picking later talents in the first is Colbert holding onto that philosophy as well as Tomlin falling in love with a guy. It's also on the scouts for being ok with a guy being graded that high.  I'm sorry, but a scout doesn't come to you with a 7.0 grade on a guy and be ok with you looking at him as a 1st round pick (7.0 FWIW is what Edmunds graded as, and is associated with role player picked in 3rd round).  That means those scouts gave a guy that should be a 7.0 as a 8.75 or higher that got them 1st round consideration in the first place.