tomlin lovers

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Why are we only looking at rounds 2-3? Awful small sample size. And it’s a confusing analysis - in some charts we are poor round 2 drafters, but good round 3. But our pro bowler came form round 2. 

Its about as inconclusive as you can find. 

And the metrics don’t tell a full story. Games played will be cut in round 2 because a guy like Worilds retired. That’s not a draft miss. It’s not Colbert’s fault mike adams got stabbed. 

I said it was a small amount. And if you keep going down to the impact its lessened.

 

And for the Worilds and Adams things.....are you insinuating they are good players?

[Dcash4]

13 minutes ago, warfelg said:

And for the Worilds and Adams things.....are you insinuating they are good players?

Not at all...at least not top end good players. Worilds was better than people want to believe, but he wasn’t anything great. Adams was a decent RT, an awful LT, then the stabbing kinda ended it. 

But that’s kinda the point. Add in the trades picks that they mention in the article and you are trying to prove something scientific That has no control. We have a bunch of missed second round picks by trade, retirement, and stabbing but the article wants everything to be equal. We general pick in the late portion of rounds, those picks are being stacked against people who pick 33-40 annually. Draft picks are not created equal, draft position is not created equal, draft classes are not created equal, yet this article tries to place price a point that you just flat out can’t prove doing it this way. 

There is no be all end all to figuring out the draft process or aligning the successes. I think you have to look at the byproduct of players, which is where we stand up. 

[warfelg]

I mean the best thing you can do is look at production out of players.  We haven't gotten great production.  Taking those two out of those numbers aren't massively changing anything.

[VigilantZombie]

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

Why are we only looking at rounds 2-3? Awful small sample size. And it’s a confusing analysis - in some charts we are poor round 2 drafters, but good round 3. But our pro bowler came form round 2. 

Its about as inconclusive as you can find. 

And the metrics don’t tell a full story. Games played will be cut in round 2 because a guy like Worilds retired. That’s not a draft miss. It’s not Colbert’s fault mike adams got stabbed. 

It doesnt really account for the greater # of busts he has had.

[grubs10]

Question for anyone that wants to blame Tomlin for this AB stuff because he doesn’t have control of the locker room, what should he have done to control AB thus far? Would you have benched him prior to this past week? Do you think that would work with AB or make things worse? Fined him? (couldn’t possibly fine him enough for it to have mattered) Make him run extra sprints at practice? ABs in the best shape in the world that would do nothing. 

If Tomlin had tried to trade AB ever before this point Steelers fans would have demanded his head. Do people blame T.O.’s coaches for His career as a diva?

i think this has gradually became an issue with AB as he became more nd more of a celebrity culminating up to this point and Tomlin tried his best not to let it tank the season. Combine this with the fact he found out week by week that he wasn’t going to get his all pro running back back for most of the season and all the extra media circus that went along with it. And finally a defense that simply doesn’t have the talent on the back end to stop anyone unless we could manhandle the oline. . Tomlin still deserves blame and should be given strict orders of changes he needs to make by his superiors (roonies and Colbert) but all this context makes me keep him.  This isn’t coaching high school or college, the players shouldn’t need to be told every game is important.  I agree Tomlin needs to be advised that some of his philosophies in-game need to to be adjusted and if he is unwilling I would be much more open to let him go but until I see evidence of an attempted change coming from up top I wouldn’t get rid of him. We have some idea of how good we could be with Tomlin and better time management and situational decision making and this roster but we have no idea how good we will be if we get rid of Tomlin for someone else.  I’ve been much more critical of Ben lately because i want to hold him to a HOF standard and I don’t think he works hard enough to be consistently at the top of his game like the other hall of farmers of this era (minus Eli), but hoping he can put up another Super Bowl run before he retires is our best chance at an immediate Super Bowl so I don’t wanna risk these last few years to the unknown unless Tomlin absolutely wont make these changes.  The mature, professional, talented players that are on this team seem to love playing for him and always play hard. I just think some of our most talented players don’t have the maturity or professionalism to match.

I saw on twitter someone make a joke about how the altercation between Ab and Ben went down and I thought it described the issue perfectly.

 

AB: Who did you vote for for team MVP?

Ben: Myself, because I knew you would be selfish and vote for yourself  

AB: *throws football at Ben and leaves pouting” 

[BlaqOptic]

1 hour ago, grubs10 said:

Question for anyone that wants to blame Tomlin for this AB stuff because he doesn’t have control of the locker room, what should he have done to control AB thus far? Would you have benched him prior to this past week? Do you think that would work with AB or make things worse? Fined him? (couldn’t possibly fine him enough for it to have mattered) Make him run extra sprints at practice? ABs in the best shape in the world that would do nothing. 

If Tomlin had tried to trade AB ever before this point Steelers fans would have demanded his head. Do people blame T.O.’s coaches for His career as a diva?

i think this has gradually became an issue with AB as he became more nd more of a celebrity culminating up to this point and Tomlin tried his best not to let it tank the season. Combine this with the fact he found out week by week that he wasn’t going to get his all pro running back back for most of the season and all the extra media circus that went along with it. And finally a defense that simply doesn’t have the talent on the back end to stop anyone unless we could manhandle the oline. . Tomlin still deserves blame and should be given strict orders of changes he needs to make by his superiors (roonies and Colbert) but all this context makes me keep him.  This isn’t coaching high school or college, the players shouldn’t need to be told every game is important.  I agree Tomlin needs to be advised that some of his philosophies in-game need to to be adjusted and if he is unwilling I would be much more open to let him go but until I see evidence of an attempted change coming from up top I wouldn’t get rid of him. We have some idea of how good we could be with Tomlin and better time management and situational decision making and this roster but we have no idea how good we will be if we get rid of Tomlin for someone else.  I’ve been much more critical of Ben lately because i want to hold him to a HOF standard and I don’t think he works hard enough to be consistently at the top of his game like the other hall of farmers of this era (minus Eli), but hoping he can put up another Super Bowl run before he retires is our best chance at an immediate Super Bowl so I don’t wanna risk these last few years to the unknown unless Tomlin absolutely wont make these changes.  The mature, professional, talented players that are on this team seem to love playing for him and always play hard. I just think some of our most talented players don’t have the maturity or professionalism to match.

I saw on twitter someone make a joke about how the altercation between Ab and Ben went down and I thought it described the issue perfectly.

 

AB: Who did you vote for for team MVP?

Ben: Myself, because I knew you would be selfish and vote for yourself  

AB: *throws football at Ben and leaves pouting” 

It shouldn't be a coaches job to keep two grown men from acting like Middle Schoolers. Just my two cents.

[VigilantZombie]

AB isnt a result of anything Tomlin has or has not done. AB is a result of AB.

[warfelg]

😏

[grubs10]

Ben just had his radio show and says he doesn’t know anything about a “blowup” that happened last week. He said he talked to AB Thursday morning and everything seemed fine and then no one has heard from him since. 

 

Also said AB is one of his best friends on the team and has helped make Ben who he is. 

Definitely seems like he is hiding some things but I don’t hate what he said given the circumstance. 

[Dcash4]

17 hours ago, warfelg said:

I mean the best thing you can do is look at production out of players.  We haven't gotten great production.  Taking those two out of those numbers aren't massively changing anything.

I understand what you are looking for is MORE players with production, but what is our entire offense? Ben is the only one not brought here by Colbert. Every player on that side of the football that starts is a highly productive above average starter. Defensively, without a unfortunate accident you could argue 6 members of the starting squad are productive (I add Vince Williams due to his draft position). 

There have been giant misses in the early parts of the draft recently - i recognize that. Again, I point to the coaching - but Joey posters inability to raise the level of play in any form or fashion of Dupree (his level of play never rose at all since his rookie year) and at the position of our head coaches background. 

I understand you blame the scouts. I blame the coaches - mainly because the places we have good coaches, we get good players. The places I think we have bad coaches, we have bad players. I do not view that as a coincidence or a SOLE issue of talent evaluation from GM.

In all honesty, we don’t know the answer because nothing is ever equal across the drafting and scouting platform. If we remove the scouting and the draft gets better there is just as likely a chance that it improved because of chance of the draft quality, same with the coaching. 

The one constant thing I know is that Colbert has brought us some top end talent and has filled a roster with quality players - again 70-75% starters are NFL quality. The gaping holes have had their drafted course run (Dupree and Burns, potentially Davis) and will most likely be replaced this year.

its seems our biggest disagreement is how many quality players should come out of each draft - even, then how do player quality’s get weighted? Is a draft of David Decastro worth not getting anyone else or is it better to draft 4 low level NFL talents? I would argue after 3 years your probably lucky to have retained 30% of your draft stock, and that’s potentially high based on average career length.  

There is no right answer to the draft. There is no math you can search through to equate the solution. We can poke holes in that article all day. But I do know under Colbert we have high end players - attained in all forms of the draft or other. We rounded out a fantastic offense with some good pieces on defense. The largest holes are at our weakest coaching points (hi, porter and lake) and our head coaches area of expertise - which he inevitably had a voice in. 

I just can’t see moving on from Colbert without first moving on from certain coaches (not Tomlin).  He has brought us too many good players and crafted too good of a team outside of the holes I highlighted above. 

Could depth be better? Sure. That’s an NFL wide problem. 

Could we draft better players through the entire draft? Sure. That’s an NFL wide problem.  

Id love to be the Vikings drafting, I think they have been tremendous, but they are more exception than rule and have also had 10 first round picks in the last 7 years and 66 picks during that time frame  - that’s a lot of opportunity.

im all for changing philosophies or changing the way we draft and look at players...but I am no where near ready to say removing Colbert is the fix  

 

[Shady Slim]

see i don’t think we should move on from butler - he’s done quite well imho with limited talent on the defense, especially in the secondary. our secondary is joe haden who is legitimately very good, and then a bunch of average to below average guys, guess you could say mike hilton’s pretty good too. 

i love the creative packages etc butler offers - which are a large reason why guys like hargave can get sack numbers on funky stunts and tricks, and watt has come along so well, dupree showed a bit of improvement this year, etc... we manage to snag white in the draft plus a DB early and i reckon we’re back in the thick of the race for a bowl

[MOSteelers56]

10 minutes ago, Shady Slim said:

see i don’t think we should move on from butler - he’s done quite well imho with limited talent on the defense, especially in the secondary. our secondary is joe haden who is legitimately very good, and then a bunch of average to below average guys, guess you could say mike hilton’s pretty good too. 

i love the creative packages etc butler offers - which are a large reason why guys like hargave can get sack numbers on funky stunts and tricks, and watt has come along so well, dupree showed a bit of improvement this year, etc... we manage to snag white in the draft plus a DB early and i reckon we’re back in the thick of the race for a bowl

I agree he’s had some positive impacts. His blitzes are dope and have improved. I think he’s done good things with the front seven. I don’t think his positives outweigh the glaring weaknesses. He doesn’t adjust well. He is very rigid. His scheme is bafflingly bad at times. Eventually someone needs to be blamed about our lack of generating turnovers. He doesn’t seem to diversify the defense when it needs to change, ie playing zone against Brady, blitzing Brees, not adjusting to empty sets, trying to cover WRs with linebackers, failing to change when an outside WR moves to the slot. I can understand making mistakes, but when you make the same mistake over and over, things need to change.

[muncher]

it just gets better and better with this clown.

now lying to cover up for his buddy buddy wr. instead of being a real HC and nipping this in the bud from incident 1, he lets AB do whatever he wants. 

lie to media, the nfl and his own players about the incident.

im sure he has the respect of that locker room.....

[Shady Slim]

1 hour ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I agree he’s had some positive impacts. His blitzes are dope and have improved. I think he’s done good things with the front seven. I don’t think his positives outweigh the glaring weaknesses. He doesn’t adjust well. He is very rigid. His scheme is bafflingly bad at times. Eventually someone needs to be blamed about our lack of generating turnovers. He doesn’t seem to diversify the defense when it needs to change, ie playing zone against Brady, blitzing Brees, not adjusting to empty sets, trying to cover WRs with linebackers, failing to change when an outside WR moves to the slot. I can understand making mistakes, but when you make the same mistake over and over, things need to change.

yeah this is true

only guys i’d like to replace him are kevin greene, vance joseph, steve wilks or rex ryan

now

i know i’m not meant to talk about it here, but unfortunately you know just as well as i do that if they hired wilks or jospeh, all of the chuds on steelers facebook would be calling for their heads after one bad performance because, ah, reasons, but i would love to have them

i doubt they’d go for ryan but i think he’s a real smart defensive mind, and he would excel with a guy like tomlin who the locker room loves

and greene is greene ofc

[jebrick]

I think Butler has been pretty good.  I do think Porter and Olsavsky need to go.  The real problem ( other than lack of talent) is the communication in the secondary.  They might try to draft football players rather than athletes.