Texans @ Green Bay "Dont Get Hurt Bowl"

[Norm]

You don't cut healthy guys on rookie contracts. Our new mantra.

[Leader]

1 minute ago, Norm said:

You don't cut healthy guys on rookie contracts. Our new mantra.

It is a good rule so long as you add in the most important consideration (IMO): are they productive?
Williams has been (granted in a decidedly unspectacular fashion). Mr. Spriggs....not as much unfortunately.

[packfanfb]

17 minutes ago, Leader said:

Could one of the new guys push Williams out? Sure. Nobodies seen anything from them so who can say - but - if there's two things that characterize Williams - that he's proven since day one - its that he's "present" and he's steady.

He's played in all 32 games of his two year career too date - and back when Hundley was steering the ship, I (part jokingly.....) said Williams - who has always averaged 3+ YPC - was our best shot at getting a first down.

If you want to sprinkle a few other things on top - he wont be UFA until 2021 and he's relatively cheap (by NFL standards).

Williams has been a steady, dependable player for sure. I question whether he could end up the odd-man out here for a few reasons: 

1. What is one of Williams' best attribute? His blocking, especially pass blocking. No question, he's dominant there. But in practice so far over 2 weeks we have seen Vitale a ton in the single-back/shotgun set. If Vitale fills that role, does that diminish Williams' role as a pass blocker? 

2. Scheme -- Williams just isn't a zone guy. His vision is probably his worst attribute as a RB. Now you're not cutting Williams by default if Dexter can't handle the No. 2 spot, but if he does, you might go with Dexter in that scheme. 

3. Grant -- he's probably the x-factor. The Packers clearly wanted this guy and he's a former Hackett guy. He plays STs including KO return duties and he's a different type of back who excels in pass catching. If you are keeping Dexter, Jamaal might become redundant and offer less diversity than Grant.  

Now...this of course assumes the premise that GB only keeps 3 RBs. Maybe they go light at another position and keep 4 RBs plus Vitale. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by packfanfb

[Leader]

3 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

Williams has been a steady, dependable player for sure. I question whether he could end up the odd-man out.......

True.

However, dont diss or discard steady production in favor of (perceived) untested talent. Every football team needs some mules.

Production IS production. Try to enhance it. Does his "unspectacular" skill sets make him vulnerable? Yes. But I'd caution about thinning too harshly at a position we've had difficulty manning w/o injury - except for Williams of course!

I'll believe AJ can handle an extensive load w/o getting injured when he does it.

 

[MrBobGray]

1 hour ago, packfanfb said:

Dexter Williams and Corey Grant should get a lot of touches tomorrow. Keep an eye on them. If the Packers go with just 3 running backs, don't be shocked if Jamaal Williams is a surprise cut. Not likely, but not out of the question given his fit in this scheme. 

Not sure I see this.  For one, I don't think Williams isn't a bad fit in this system, he has good vision, solid feet and he finds the cutback quickly and consistently.  He's never going to run the outside zone like Jones does (or Grant or D. Williams honestly), but he's not quite as slow running outside as people imagine.  On top of that, he can run basically anything you want him to which makes him a wonderful depth back.  Grant isn't a RB really, and Williams is far from ready to be the guy.  Unless his hamstring injury is much worse than expected (doesn't sound like it is), I can't see a world where Jamaal isn't RB2 opening day.

[MrBobGray]

1 hour ago, packfanfb said:

Williams has been a steady, dependable player for sure. I question whether he could end up the odd-man out here for a few reasons: 

1. What is one of Williams' best attribute? His blocking, especially pass blocking. No question, he's dominant there. But in practice so far over 2 weeks we have seen Vitale a ton in the single-back/shotgun set. If Vitale fills that role, does that diminish Williams' role as a pass blocker? 

2. Scheme -- Williams just isn't a zone guy. His vision is probably his worst attribute as a RB. Now you're not cutting Williams by default if Dexter can't handle the No. 2 spot, but if he does, you might go with Dexter in that scheme. 

3. Grant -- he's probably the x-factor. The Packers clearly wanted this guy and he's a former Hackett guy. He plays STs including KO return duties and he's a different type of back who excels in pass catching. If you are keeping Dexter, Jamaal might become redundant and offer less diversity than Grant.  

Now...this of course assumes the premise that GB only keeps 3 RBs. Maybe they go light at another position and keep 4 RBs plus Vitale. 

Man we are miles apart on this.  Not sure where you see bad vision, he regularly finds the cutback and he's not a dancer in the slightest.  I'd say his vision is arguably his best attribute; his worst is mediocre athleticism and a lack of acceleration through the hole.

[skibrett15]

1 hour ago, packfanfb said:

Dexter Williams and Corey Grant should get a lot of touches tomorrow. Keep an eye on them. If the Packers go with just 3 running backs, don't be shocked if Jamaal Williams is a surprise cut. Not likely, but not out of the question given his fit in this scheme. 

yeah to me it comes down to what do they need from a 3rd down back and how will they value pass protection.

Williams has shown some pass block chops, but pretty much nothing else.

I think this offense is gonna carry 4 RBs PLUS a FB and only 5 WR though.

[skibrett15]

1 minute ago, MrBobGray said:

Man we are miles apart on this.  Not sure where you see bad vision, he regularly finds the cutback and he's not a dancer in the slightest.  I'd say his vision is arguably his best attribute; his worst is mediocre athleticism and a lack of acceleration through the hole.

yeah.  Biggest issue with Williams is we aren't a good inside zone blocking scheme relative to outside zone.  Those outside zone runs POP, but williams can't press the sideline like a decently athletic back can, so it's not really an option.  For him it's cutback or bust on the outside zone.

 

I just don't see it with Williams.  He should try to put on 15 LBs and play fullback.

[MrBobGray]

Just now, skibrett15 said:

yeah.  Biggest issue with Williams is we aren't a good inside zone blocking scheme relative to outside zone.  Those outside zone runs POP, but williams can't press the sideline like a decently athletic back can, so it's not really an option.  For him it's cutback or bust on the outside zone.

 

I just don't see it with Williams.  He should try to put on 15 LBs and play fullback.

I actually think Williams will do better on the outside zone than people think.  His straight-line speed is serviceable, he just doesn't gear up to it particularly well.  And honestly if you're hitting the cutback and teams start sitting on it it's easier to get outside anyway.  Sure, he may not be a great scheme fit given this, but there's not a lot of guys who run the outside zone super well who also excel at the rest of the RB package.  If you have the speed to burn the defense to the outside, you're either a freak athlete RB who probably went 1st round or you are missing the rest of the toolkit.

[packfanfb]

2 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

Not sure I see this.  For one, I don't think Williams isn't a bad fit in this system, he has good vision, solid feet and he finds the cutback quickly and consistently.  He's never going to run the outside zone like Jones does (or Grant or D. Williams honestly), but he's not quite as slow running outside as people imagine.  On top of that, he can run basically anything you want him to which makes him a wonderful depth back.  Grant isn't a RB really, and Williams is far from ready to be the guy.  Unless his hamstring injury is much worse than expected (doesn't sound like it is), I can't see a world where Jamaal isn't RB2 opening day.

Don't really agree here. I think he has pretty poor vision. He's a very tough runner and a solid "get the extra yard" back. Also a very good blocker as I've discussed. That being said, he'd be a lock if MM was still the coach. With LaFleur, new scheme, and an upgraded role for Vitale, I'm not certain. I think there's a real battle there brewing and the longer Jamaal sits on the sidelines with his injury, the bigger the battle becomes.  

[skibrett15]

1 minute ago, MrBobGray said:

I actually think Williams will do better on the outside zone than people think.  His straight-line speed is serviceable, he just doesn't gear up to it particularly well.  And honestly if you're hitting the cutback and teams start sitting on it it's easier to get outside anyway.  Sure, he may not be a great scheme fit given this, but there's not a lot of guys who run the outside zone super well who also excel at the rest of the RB package.  If you have the speed to burn the defense to the outside, you're either a freak athlete RB who probably went 1st round or you are missing the rest of the toolkit.

He has no plus tools outside of pass blocking, and it's not even like he's Kuhn back there.  Williams is just so meh. 

 

Until one of the other guys proves he is unreliable, I have a hard time seeing him doing much.  He's basically coming into this situation with no head start on grant or dexter williams.  Grant has a slight edge because he has played with Hackett, and dexter williams is an actual rookie.  He doesn't have any leg up on the playbook like he used to.  Rodgers CLEARLY prefers Jones and has for the entirety of their time.

60% share to Jones

20% share to grant

20% share to one of the williams, and I'd bet on the more athletic guy who was a draft pick of this regime.

 

Straight line speed that is serviceable but doesn't gear up well is basically a useless trait.  It sometimes helps turn a 40 yard run into a 60 yard TD.  And only sometimes.

[MrBobGray]

6 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

Don't really agree here. I think he has pretty poor vision. He's a very tough runner and a solid "get the extra yard" back. Also a very good blocker as I've discussed. That being said, he'd be a lock if MM was still the coach. With LaFleur, new scheme, and an upgraded role for Vitale, I'm not certain. I think there's a real battle there brewing and the longer Jamaal sits on the sidelines with his injury, the bigger the battle becomes.  

I mean, that's fair, but nearly every scouting report when he came out listed his vision as one of his greatest strengths, and I've never seen anything from him on the field that indicates otherwise.  I guess can you clarify what you see that you think demonstrates poor vision?  He finds the cutback quickly and easily, he can and does bounce it a gap or two when the hole closes early, he has a great sense for pressing the hole to set up blocks, etc.  I just don't see poor vision at all, now or coming out of college.

[packfanfb]

1 hour ago, MrBobGray said:

I mean, that's fair, but nearly every scouting report when he came out listed his vision as one of his greatest strengths, and I've never seen anything from him on the field that indicates otherwise.  I guess can you clarify what you see that you think demonstrates poor vision?  He finds the cutback quickly and easily, he can and does bounce it a gap or two when the hole closes early, he has a great sense for pressing the hole to set up blocks, etc.  I just don't see poor vision at all, now or coming out of college.

By vision, I'm referring to his ability to recognize the hole/cut-back, etc. Don't have game cut-ups in front of me, but I think it's pretty much a consensus that Jamaal doesn't see it as well as Jones, for example, who has very good vision.

Here is another take similar to what I'm saying is a "possibility" that Williams is a surprise cut: https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/packers-training-camp-2019/2019/7/31/20747913/packers-training-camp-battlescould-increased-competition-jeopardize-jamaal-williams-roster-spot 

[AlexGreen#20]

Aaron Jones made a lot of strides last year as a blocker, but man with his injuries, I'd be terrified to not have a guy who can block worth a lick back there if the worst were to happen in week 3.

I'd much rather throw DW on the practice squad. WAY easier to find a DW than a Jamaal Williams mid season.

[packfanfb]

Just now, AlexGreen#20 said:

Aaron Jones made a lot of strides last year as a blocker, but man with his injuries, I'd be terrified to not have a guy who can block worth a lick back there if the worst were to happen in week 3.

I'd much rather throw DW on the practice squad. WAY easier to find a DW than a Jamaal Williams mid season.

Going to depend on how DW plays. Right now, he's been the center of gripes by LaFleur so it doesn't sound like he's taking the job as of yet, but a strong preseason coupled with JW's hammy may alter the mood. 

Also, Vitale plays a big part here. Even I was surprised to see how often he was playing single back with the one's during the two-minute drill and other sets. Typically that's where JW would be, but Vitale may be the preferred choice.