Quarterback Rankings (final regular season 2019)

[Matts4313]

26 minutes ago, Nabbs4u said:

I know you hate McNabb but his Weapons outside of the RB position were absolute trash. Hence his numbers. There wasn't a QB who did more with less during his Era, that put up his type of numbers other then Tom Brady. Sorry!

One of the few times I agree with this dude. McNabb was clearly a top 10 QB while playing. Sure he dirtballed like crazy and has been a clown post career.... but he was a good QB during his playing days.

4 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

This is argument is my problem. Mahomes didn't throw for 5500 yards. Goff last year threw 400 less yards than Mahomes on 20 less attempts. A difference but if we multiply his Y/A by that we get a difference of around 250. We just had a thread asking if Goff is good. We have people wondering how other Qbs could do if they had McVay but no one is really questioning the scheme with Mahomes. Mahomes is a better talent but there's certainly a double standard there. 

The argument against goff is he is trending down. Mahomes isnt trending down. 

[Bearerofnews]

1 hour ago, Soggust said:

I can't believe I'm even saying this, but you do have some merit in what you are saying. 

I don't think rational KC fans (or people, in general) are saying Mahomes is infallible and can do no wrong. He does benefit from great coaching. He does benefit from good receiver play. He does miss throws. He will have 0td 2int games. He is human.

Where I disagree, and what I think you are missing is that every QB has flaws and every successful QB is in a system that benefits them. If it were as simple as throwing screens and good play design, Goff would be putting up 5500 yards a year. Brady would be putting up 50 TDs every year. Manning would have had a bunch of 5000 yard seasons. 

That's the point. This isn't some guy who simply had a really good season with 35 TDs and 8picks with 4000 yards passing. His numbers last year were astronomically good and arguably a top-3 regular season of all time. He went for 50 tds and 5000 yards and was the MVP of the league in his first year starting. Currently, he's leading the league in passer rating, yards, tds, etc (with 0 picks). To suggest he's not even top 5 because, hey he missed some throws, didn't throw into coverage enough, one of his screens went 14 yards for a TD and umm his receivers are fast - is ridiculous. 

Plenty of teams have good play design. Plenty of teams have fast players. Plenty of teams throw screens. Not very many teams in HISTORY are throwing for 50 TDs.

Every QB has flaws. I'm having a hard time justifying Mahomes outside of the top 5 unless you are just blatantly biased or looking for clicks and I don't think it has anything to do with being a Chiefs fan. 

I agree every player has flaws not just every qb. The difference is, not every player is being called a God or praised like Mahomes nationally. Which is the same things i said when it was Rodgers being called the greatest. I think if looking at this year and last year, collectively. Itd be hard to not say Mahomes is currently the best qb. 

[LeotheLion]

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

The argument against goff is he is trending down. Mahomes isnt trending down. 

No it's not. Even last year there were arguments of wondering how many Qbs could produce at Goffs level with McVay. We never hear the same for KCs system. 

[Matts4313]

Just now, LeotheLion said:

No it's not. Even last year there were arguments of wondering how many Qbs could produce at Goffs level with McVay. We never hear the same for KCs system. 

Ok. Thats my argument against Goff. Obviously there is a very clear connection between Goff and McVay. But in this very thread people have tried to discredit Mahomes because of his offensive scheme/weapons, so you are clearly ignoring that KC fans are fighting the same battle. 

[Matts4313]

3 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

No it's not. Even last year there were arguments of wondering how many Qbs could produce at Goffs level with McVay. We never hear the same for KCs system. 

In case you missed it

10 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

Mahomes makes amazing plays.. but very overrated and easy throws. Big difference between a play and a throw.  Thats why he is lower on PFF. They are assessing for tangibles that other systems dont account for.

If ya think im a hater, a troll and generally a moron. I ask you to do something. Next KC game, get a notepad and pen. Checkmark everytime Mahomes completes a pass in tight coverage and a X everytime to a relatively open target. See what the overall percentage is at the end of the game. 

Not the play (meaning what footing he throws from or angle) but the actual throw. The placement, coverage and distance. 

If im wrong even off 1 game sample ill apologize.

I promise im not hating.  Im just trying to bring some levity to the hysteria. Same hysteria we heard with Rodgers couple years ago... now, Rodgers hysteria doesnt even create a whisper. 

Rodgers and Mahomes have nearly identicial games. Early in Rodgers career he wasnt gun shy with throws like he is now. But he did hold on to the ball to get more open targets. I dont think Mahomes has to hold on to the ball that long. His guys are open due to design of that system.

There is no knock for throwing to open targets. That is what a qb should do. Perhaps on every route for every team, there truly is a target that is wide open and some qbs have better vision and less restraint of locking in on a specific target for that play and just always find the open guy. But unlike others, i wont overpraise easier levels of execution vs degrees of difficulty.

This is why Goff impressed me so much last year. First 8 weeks or so, he was lasering in dime after dime in insanely tight coverage and small windows. How any fan isnt more impressed with tight window throws for lessor stats vs wide open throws that generate bigger stats is crazy to me. I guess im just huge on context over content. 

 

[Bearerofnews]

I think the issue is we saw Goff without Mcvay, with Fisher. But as a rookie. We never seen Mahomes without Reid. But we have seen Reid with other QBs. Also we never seen Mcvay as HC with another QB.

Its like we saw Brees in SD with great talent and then we saw him with Payton. With Payton, Brees who in San Diego was fringe top 10 maybe? Became the most prolific passer ever.

[LeotheLion]

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Ok. Thats my argument against Goff. Obviously there is a very clear connection between Goff and McVay. But in this very thread people have tried to discredit Mahomes because of his offensive scheme/weapons, so you are clearly ignoring that KC fans are fighting the same battle. 

There's a very clear connection between the QB and play caller of every team. Why do you think Dak is playing so much better? 

I'm not ignoring it. I'm agreeing that if people want to discredit Goff then they should discredit Mahomes. I'm not saying I agree that either should be discredited. Part of being a QB is being coachable and following the scheme of a coach. If you make the scheme look easy then it's because you are doing your job well. 

[Matts4313]

3 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

There's a very clear connection between the QB and play caller of every team. Why do you think Dak is playing so much better? 

Because our OL was ranked 28th in passblocking, our WRs were ranked 32 (dead last) in getting open and our playcaller had no variety - - literally called the same routes/plays every game as echo'd by Dez, Witten, Romo and Cooper.

3 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

I'm not ignoring it. I'm agreeing that if people want to discredit Goff then they should discredit Mahomes. I'm not saying I agree that either should be discredited. Part of being a QB is being coachable and following the scheme of a coach. If you make the scheme look easy then it's because you are doing your job well. 

I agree with this. The difference as Goff no longer seems to be playing at a high level in his scheme, yet Mahomes is. 

So is it the QB's or the HC's? Is it a mixture? 

[LeotheLion]

5 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

So is it the QB's or the HC's? Is it a mixture? 

Mixture, but Goff gets the lion share of the blame. 

[Soggust]

16 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

This is argument is my problem. Mahomes didn't throw for 5500 yards. Goff last year threw 400 less yards than Mahomes on 20 less attempts. A difference but if we multiply his Y/A by that we get a difference of around 250. We just had a thread asking if Goff is good. We have people wondering how other Qbs could do if they had McVay but no one is really questioning the scheme with Mahomes. Mahomes is a better talent but there's certainly a double standard there. 

I didn't say Mahomes threw for 5500 so not sure what you mean by this? 

As far as Goff vs Mahomes goes, I think the biggest difference (last year at least) is 18 touchdowns. The Rams obviously had some TDs taken by Gurley/Anderson (19 RB rushing TDs) while the Chiefs only had 13 RB rushing TDs, but even accounting for that, 12 TDs is significant (as is 250 yards realistically, if attempts are equal). 

I'm sure this sounds like I'm trying to discredit Goff, but I'm really not. He had a great regular season last year and the Rams were the #2 offense in football. Certainly, nothing to be ashamed of. This year is a different story, obviously, but I'm hopeful (for my fantasy team's sake) that he turns it around.

And people are certainly questioning Mahomes' scheme. You might have missed my ~5000 posts in this thread debating it, but it's certainly happening - as it does to all elite players.

[Matts4313]

2 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

Mixture, but Goff gets the lion share of the blame. 

Fair. And Goff is still super young, so there is clearly room to improve. 

1 minute ago, Soggust said:

I didn't say Mahomes threw for 5500 so not sure what you mean by this? 

As far as Goff vs Mahomes goes, I think the biggest difference (last year at least) is 18 touchdowns. The Rams obviously had some TDs taken by Gurley/Anderson (19 RB rushing TDs) while the Chiefs only had 13 RB rushing TDs, but even accounting for that, 12 TDs is significant (as is 250 yards realistically, if attempts are equal). 

I'm sure this sounds like I'm trying to discredit Goff, but I'm really not. He had a great regular season last year and the Rams were the #2 offense in football. Certainly, nothing to be ashamed of. This year is a different story, obviously, but I'm hopeful (for my fantasy team's sake) that he turns it around.

And people are certainly questioning Mahomes' scheme. You might have missed my ~5000 posts in this thread debating it, but it's certainly happening - as it does to all elite players.

Bulk stats are dumb. Question their efficiency. 

[RaidersAreOne]

Carr shouldn't be near any of these lists.

[Matts4313]

Normally I just default to ANY/A.. But props to @RandyMossIsBoss for this. He has made most everyone angry with some part of the list... which is normally the sign of a good list. 

[Soggust]

4 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Fair. And Goff is still super young, so there is clearly room to improve. 

Bulk stats are dumb. Question their efficiency. 

I generally agree with this, so not sure what you mean?

We are talking about a difference of 19 attempts, certainly a 12 TD difference on the season (after adjusting for RBs) isn't disingenuous. Goff threw a TD every ~17.53 attempts last year, so we are talking about a 1TD difference?

Edited September 25, 2019 by Soggust

[Matts4313]

1 minute ago, Soggust said:

I generally agree with this, so not sure what you mean?

We are talking about a difference of 19 attempts, certainly a 12 TD difference on the season (after adjusting for RBs) isn't disingenuous. Goff threw a TD every ~17.53 attempts last year, so we are discussing about a 1TD difference?

Im just saying that Mahomes is so good, just bring up his ANY/A, Passer rating, QBR and such. You dont even have to pass for 5K yards when you are that good.