MKE Bucks Thread | Offseason

[beekay414]

2 minutes ago, IrishGreen said:

My stance on Giannis has always been, if he wants to leave, go ahead. There’s no sense in worrying about it, and I’m not going to build a team improperly just to give him the faux sense of “trying” to win.

i don’t want an expensive dinosaur center either. I like Jordan, but he’s not going to be cheap. Just get someone who does 80% of what he does for 10% of the contract.

As much as I love Giannis, a championship should always remain the priority. 

Yep. 

[Packerraymond]

4 minutes ago, IrishGreen said:

My stance on Giannis has always been, if he wants to leave, go ahead. There’s no sense in worrying about it, and I’m not going to build a team improperly just to give him the faux sense of “trying” to win.

i don’t want an expensive dinosaur center either. I like Jordan, but he’s not going to be cheap. Just get someone who does 80% of what he does for 10% of the contract.

As much as I love Giannis, a championship should always remain the priority. 

Without Giannis there is no chance of a championship. We'd be back at square one looking towards probably the mid 2020's before that happens again with multiple years like the one it took to get Jabari to build the roster back up.

You guys can ignore the business side of it all you want, but the Bucks won't and they can't. This isn't some video game. They just took 250m of the public's money and finally have the casual fan base back in the building after years of playing in front of empty crowds. Khris and Jabari aren't going to be traded for salary dumps, no chance. If we move them it will be to get good players back.

If Giannis leaves and we go back to the old Bucks of the mid 2000s I only see things getting worse as far as ownership intervention into basketball affairs. These guys aren't going to lose money and stick with a loser.

It's pretty much a necessity to care what Giannis thinks, no different how the Cavs must care what LeBron thinks and the Packers Aaron Rodgers. To think otherwise is naive.

[IrishGreen]

I think we should care what Giannis thinks, but we shouldn’t be prisoners to his every single one of his wants.

Im not a fan of catering to players like that,  I’m just not. 

I would let Aaron Rodgers go as well if he had issues with everything. 

Do the best you can to put yourself into a position to win nba championships, and let the chips fall where they may. 

[beekay414]

2 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

It's pretty much a necessity to care what Giannis thinks, no different how the Cavs must care what LeBron thinks and the Packers Aaron Rodgers. To think otherwise is naive.

I'm not naive, I just think it's incredibly idiotic to place such major emphasis on team building based on what a player wants. LeBron did that in Cleveland the first time around and dipped the hell out anyways. Left them with the worst roster in the league, easily, because they built to cater to him. 

You build a winning system/winner and the players will align with it. Look at San Antonio. That's a system that wins, not a single player. They built the right way. They didn't cater to a single player (Duncan almost left for Orlando and Kawhi is likely on the outs too) and yet, here we are, for the first time in 21 years they didn't win 50 friggin' games and are still far better than the Bucks team with the superstar. Funny how that works.

As far as the business side goes...you win, you get business. That simple. Look at the friggin' Sixers. They tore it down completely, suffered for a while, lived off of TV deals and hitting the salary floor and now they are reaping the rewards. There's more than one way to do this and catering to the players rarely works out better than building the system. 

I'm sorry, I'm not bringing back Jabari Parker because the casual fan thinks he's good. Casual fans also think Carmelo Anthony is a winner. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by bkobow05

[Packerraymond]

49 minutes ago, bkobow05 said:

I'm not naive, I just think it's incredibly idiotic to place such major emphasis on team building based on what a player wants. LeBron did that in Cleveland the first time around and dipped the hell out anyways. Left them with the worst roster in the league, easily, because they built to cater to him. 

You build a winning system/winner and the players will align with it. Look at San Antonio. That's a system that wins, not a single player. They built the right way. They didn't cater to a single player (Duncan almost left for Orlando and Kawhi is likely on the outs too) and yet, here we are, for the first time in 21 years they didn't win 50 friggin' games and are still far better than the Bucks team with the superstar. Funny how that works.

As far as the business side goes...you win, you get business. That simple. Look at the friggin' Sixers. They tore it down completely, suffered for a while, lived off of TV deals and hitting the salary floor and now they are reaping the rewards. There's more than one way to do this and catering to the players rarely works out better than building the system. 

I'm sorry, I'm not bringing back Jabari Parker because the casual fan thinks he's good. Casual fans also think Carmelo Anthony is a winner. 

The Spurs are like telling an NFL GM to go build the Patriots, sure I'd love to be the Spurs, but they found a HOF coach and a bunch of unselfish players who were at HOF levels or just underneath it. 

The more plausible way to win is to find a generational talent (Giannis) and build what he needs around him. We've got the hardest part out of the way, now we have to figure out how to get the rest of the way there.

Jabari is what he is at this point, a scorer who's a liability on defense. I'd bring him back on that 3/54 any day even with the defensive liability because he's not a Middleton or Bledsoe, he totally understands Giannis is the guy and that doesn't bother him and he doesn't try and steal the show. If some team gives him close to the max, I'm working a trade, but under 20m for a short term deal like that? I'm good. Still are going to need scorers on this team who can hit jumpers.

[beekay414]

31 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

The Spurs are like telling an NFL GM to go build the Patriots, sure I'd love to be the Spurs, but they found a HOF coach and a bunch of unselfish players who were at HOF levels or just underneath it. 

It's just a point that you don't have to cater to superstars to win. I don't feel like the Rockets, Warriors or Raptors cater to their players. They built a system AROUND those superstars and won. They didn't go with the "give him what he wants" mentality like with LeBron. Boston is another team building a system rather than catering. You win, you'll get guys.

 

31 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

The more plausible way to win is to find a generational talent (Giannis) and build what he needs around him. We've got the hardest part out of the way, now we have to figure out how to get the rest of the way there.

Yes, you build around him but you don't cater to him like Cleveland did with LeBron. You go get pieces that make sense and fit. There's a difference.

 

31 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Jabari is what he is at this point, a scorer who's a liability on defense. I'd bring him back on that 3/54 any day even with the defensive liability because he's not a Middleton or Bledsoe, he totally understands Giannis is the guy and that doesn't bother him and he doesn't try and steal the show. If some team gives him close to the max, I'm working a trade, but under 20m for a short term deal like that? I'm good. Still are going to need scorers on this team who can hit jumpers.

Jabari is a net negative and he's already turned down 3/54. You can go get Michael Beasley for 1/5 to do what he does. They are incredibly similar players yet Beasley got thrown away like trash by his organization. Seriously, go look at Beasley's numbers. His eerily similar to Jabari. The only real difference is Jabari is a more efficient finisher than Beasley. That's it.

Yeah, you need scorers but you also need guys that aren't completely lost on defense. You don't win with those guys no matter what they provide on offense. A net negative is a net negative. What's the point of someone scoring 20 when they give up 20 right back? 

I don't want Jabari back for anything he's realistically going to get. I'm not even sure I want him back on the qualifying offer either. He's unplayable in close games at the end. And no, I don't care about the casual fan side of it either in regards to him. They can love him all they want but he's still not a winning style player. I don't care if he differs to Giannis. He plays the exact same position as him, can't defend anything and is also someone who is an injury liability. No thanks.

Use certain assets to get out of contracts like Snell, Henson and Delly and build the right friggin' way. I want to wash the Jason Kidd stink off and Khris reeks of him. If you can get actual assets out of it? Cool. If all you can get is what I suggested? You still friggin' do it. That team still makes the playoffs in the East, with a good coach, because of Giannis, spacing and defense.

Edited April 6, 2018 by bkobow05

[Packerraymond]

We'll agree to disagree then. I can live with Jabari's shortcomings on defense  if the deal is right. I'm not going much over the 3/54 though so if someone signs him to a QO above that I'm working to work out a trade. Not sure what another team will value him at with the ACLs. Wiggins isn't much different from him on defense and the Wolves are happy with him. They were crazy to pay him 5/150 but for 3 years and 20 or under I'm good.

I'm willing to see what a new coach could do for a guy like that.

[beekay414]

15 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

We'll agree to disagree then. I can live with Jabari's shortcomings on defense  if the deal is right. I'm not going much over the 3/54 though so if someone signs him to a QO above that I'm working to work out a trade. Not sure what another team will value him at with the ACLs. Wiggins isn't much different from him on defense and the Wolves are happy with him. They were crazy to pay him 5/150 but for 3 years and 20 or under I'm good.

I'm willing to see what a new coach could do for a guy like that.

1) A S&T has to be worked out BEFORE Jabari signs the RFA offer sheet otherwise all we can do is match or let him go.
2) The Wolves owner had to sit down with Wiggins and discuss his commitment to the team. That deal was awful anyways. 
3) I don't even think Jabari is worth what we offered. People are too pre-occupied with PPGZ!!! than the actual game of basketball. We're clearly a better team with him off the court and the numbers suggest it. If he wants to embrace a role where he ONLY plays against the 2nd unit, sure. If he's adamant about 30+ minutes per game and playing in crunch time? Forget it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkeja01/on-off/2018
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkeja01/on-off/2017
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkeja01/on-off/2016
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkeja01/on-off/2015

The proof is in the pudding. The only year he wasn't a complete negative was 2016.

I mean ratings of -4.1, -5.4, -0.4 and -9.0? That's just horrid.

But, sure, we can agree to disagree. That's fine. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by bkobow05

[Packerraymond]

2 minutes ago, bkobow05 said:

1) A S&T has to be worked out BEFORE Jabari signs the RFA offer sheet otherwise all we can do is match or let him go.
2) The Wolves owner had to sit down with Wiggins and discuss his commitment to the team. That deal was awful anyways. 
3) I don't even think Jabari is worth what we offered. People are too pre-occupied with PPGZ!!! than the actual game of basketball. We're clearly a better team with him off the court and the numbers suggest it. If he wants to embrace a role where he ONLY plays against the 2nd unit, sure. If he's adamant about 30+ minutes per game and playing in crunch time? Forget it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkeja01/on-off/2018
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkeja01/on-off/2017
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkeja01/on-off/2016
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkeja01/on-off/2015

The proof is in the pudding. The only year he wasn't a complete negative was 2016.

I mean ratings of -4.1, -5.4, -0.4 and -9.0? That's just horrid.

I think the biggest problem with Jabari is he and Giannis haven't gotten to play together enough to figure it out, and that's honestly the biggest problem with him is that he needs to defend the same position which makes it tough to play together. His +/- is obviously going to reflect the fact that Giannis is often on the bench when he's on the court.

I just love his offensive game, and its much more than PPG for me, his explosion to the rim is insane, and credit him for developing a good jumper to go with it. For me it's also that he's an excellent passer and an unselfish player, he's fine working within the confines of the offense unlike Middleton and Bledsoe.

Defensively he is what he is, I'm not sure if it's effort, conditioning or awareness but I'm willing up to a certain price point to see if an actual coach could make him average there. That's all we need.

[beekay414]

3 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

I think the biggest problem with Jabari is he and Giannis haven't gotten to play together enough to figure it out, and that's honestly the biggest problem with him is that he needs to defend the same position which makes it tough to play together. His +/- is obviously going to reflect the fact that Giannis is often on the bench when he's on the court.

That applies to really only this year. Before 2017-2018, that's not true. 2016-2017, his top 5 lineups (by minutes played together) involved Giannis. In 2015-2016, it was his top 4. His rookie year, his top 2 lineups were with Giannis.

So he's gotten plenty of burn with Giannis in his career. The fit was rarely positive. 

Rookie Year with Giannis: 416 Minutes, -7.6 net
2nd Year: 1785 Minutes, -1.5 net
3rd Year: 1207 Minutes, -2.2 net
This Year: 330 Minutes, -4.7 net

[beekay414]

I get liking Jabari. I do. I'm just not willing to pay a player of his type what he wants. I think it's counterproductive to winning. An offensive minded player, that's not elite in that regard, that needs to be coddled on defense isn't someone worth allocating major cap space towards.

Edited April 6, 2018 by bkobow05

[beekay414]

I was at Steve's on Bluemound today and legitimately had someone tell me that Jabari was a better basketball player than Giannis. This...THIS...is why I don't give two schits about what casual fans think.

[Packerraymond]

So do we want a 6 seed, keep our 1st rounder and matchup with the Cavs or red hot Sixers, or the 7 seed, lose our 1st rounder but play the Kyrie-less Celtics?

[IrishGreen]

32 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

So do we want a 6 seed, keep our 1st rounder and matchup with the Cavs or red hot Sixers, or the 7 seed, lose our 1st rounder but play the Kyrie-less Celtics?

i kind of just want to get it (giving the pick up) over with, get the 7th seed, and hope we can finally win a playoff series against the celtics with kyrie out. with washington losing last night, that's exactly where we are. 

brogdon back tonight, but giannis out. 

[beekay414]

We have a shot to keep our pick. Miami is getting smacked by OKC right now and they get Toronto on Wednesday. If we can manage to hold on tonight, Washington loses tomorrow to Boston and Miami loses tonight (down 28 with 1 minute left lol) and Wednesday. We'd get the 6th seed even if we lose to the Sixers.