Average Offensive Starter PFF Scores for NFL

[Mox]

52 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Wassat?

Receiving cores 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I

On 3/9/2020 at 3:51 PM, MrBobGray said:

If you need elite talent at all position groups to get the Superbowl, you need to fire your coaching staff immediately, and also you're never getting to the Superbowl.  There's simply no way to build a team that doesn't have weaknesses given the salary cap and number of players on a roster.  The Packers had an elite OL, an elite RB group, an elite WR1, and an elite pass rush.  If you also have an elite QB, in what world does that not sound like a Superbowl caliber team?  An elite QB raises the value of the talent around them, that's what makes them elite.  This receiving group being slightly below average is about as good as a team can be expected to do given the salary cap and the need to fill the premiums first.  Could improvements be made there?  Absolutely, and they would help.  But Rodgers is being paid $30 million; if he needs ever increasing help with that price tag, A) that's impossible mathematically to make happen without absolutely posterizing the league in the draft and B) what on Earth are you actually paying all that money for?

In the world where the elite QB has underperformed his historical performance, and where the 49ers are able to run through the defense without needing to consistently pass the ball?

More seriously, it is a bit of a straw man to say that needing a #2WR that is better than the league average means needing an elite talent at all position groups. 

Rodgers really hasn't been elite for some time now, and hasn't really appeared to elevated the play of the guys around him much either.  Some of that may revolve around the general inexperience of the majority of the group, as Lafleur was quoted as saying they never got to their up tempo offense partly due to that inexperience.  As Outpost has pointed out, that $30 million dollars is a bit problematic unless Rodgers experiences a late career rejuvenation, which I assume, is still possible.  

I agree there is no obvious pathway to improve all position groups, and the proper priorities may not include upgrades to the WR group.  That is a different question than if the WR group as it currently appears, is good enough to get them by the elite defenses in the league.  They are going to have to have some luck again this year and get a player or two to step up and play significantly better than their value as it appears right now.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Ragnar Danneskjold

[MrBobGray]

23 hours ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

In the world where the elite QB has underperformed his historical performance, and where the 49ers are able to run through the defense without needing to consistently pass the ball?

More seriously, it is a bit of a straw man to say that needing a #2WR that is better than the league average means needing an elite talent at all position groups. 

Rodgers really hasn't been elite for some time now, and hasn't really appeared to elevated the play of the guys around him much either.  Some of that may revolve around the general inexperience of the majority of the group, as Lafleur was quoted as saying they never got to their up tempo offense partly due to that inexperience.  As Outpost has pointed out, that $30 million dollars is a bit problematic unless Rodgers experiences a late career rejuvenation, which I assume, is still possible.  

I agree there is no obvious pathway to improve all position groups, and the proper priorities may not include upgrades to the WR group.  That is a different question than if the WR group as it currently appears, is good enough to get them by the elite defenses in the league.  They are going to have to have some luck again this year and get a player or two to step up and play significantly better than their value as it appears right now.

I've been deliberately trying to keep my thoughts on Rodgers out of it, just because I don't want to get in that discussion again.  My point was mostly that I don't see the receiving group as a significant weakness in the team, and that the desire for better receivers is the desire for a high end corps instead of an average one, not a request for an average one instead of a terrible one.

In general, I would personally agree with basically all of this. I do think this group could easily be good enough to get them by the elite defenses in the league, but that's really dependent on how so many different young players improve next year (which I don't personally love relying on).  There's just so many question marks next year it's hard to say much one way or the other:

• Will MVS bounce back and refine his route running and understanding of the offense?
• What kind of player will EQ be next year?  
• How much room for growth does Lazard have both technically and physically?  
• How much body comp rework can Sternberger manage in a calendar year?
• Can Big Bob stay on the field and continue to work on his blocking?

And that's just the guys already on the roster.  Even without additions, this group could be once again underwhelming or legitimately dangerous.  There's some real talent and skill in that group, but it does need a lot of work.  The good thing is I'd actually say last year was about as bad as it could be in terms of the steps players took, and I'd guess a good chunk of that was due to the change in scheme and playbook.  On top of that, all four of the young guys you'd look to first struggled a lot with injuries: EQ missed the season, MVS had leg injuries all year, and Tonyan and Sternberger both missed significant time.  You have to think it's unlikely all four of those guys have the same issue going forward.

[MrBobGray]

On 3/9/2020 at 5:54 PM, Shanedorf said:

Indeed
One component of being an elite QB is having an elite understanding of the offense and concepts and where everybody is at any given moment
In year 1 of a new offense with a new playcaller and a new OC and a new QB coach, its at least possible that some of your elite-ness would take some time to come to fruition. Brian Billick talked about the challenges of learning a new language and he said its really hard in a classroom environment and the degree of difficulty goes up exponentially when you're on the field and trying to adjust to the defenses' adjustments.

As with everything in football, its always multi-factorial and all I am suggesting is that there may be some dropoff in eliteness experienced during the transition from an offense you ran for 13 years and one you and your team-mates just learned. We'll see how that plays out in 2020 and beyond

I'd agree with the basic premise here, as I do think it's unreasonable to expect even an MVP to be at his best in a new offense year one.  What's concerning to me is the fact that his play noticeably fell off as the year went on, which is the opposite of what you'd expect if that was the primary issue.  

The thing is, I still don't see any kind of physical or mental decline.  There's no reason he is incapable of fully bouncing back, other than history showing that to not be a common thing.  But hell, even the Old Man turned his game around at the end of his career, and Favre's a guy I never would have expected to be willing to change it up.  So I haven't given up hope yet.

[Shanedorf]

3 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

The thing is, I still don't see any kind of physical or mental decline

I've seen comments about:
mental decline, physical decline and intestinal fortitude decline and I was trying to get a better understanding of the issues with AR.
Its rarely just one thing , but I appreciate you sharing your insight of what you saw.