turtle28 Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, aceinthehouse said: Anything can happen in the draft. Nobody should be critical of reasonable possibilities. Just because "you" (everyone here) may not think it can happen, doesn't mean it wont. So long as its reasonable... trading down 4, 5 or more spots is not only reasonable, imo, but likely. If its true that we like 25 guys @#13, then trading down a few spots while gaining compensation & getting our guy is very possible. Do the math. We have zero clue who will be available @13. Give me a scenario. What team trades up for our pick, what player are they targeting and why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldman9er Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, turtle28 said: This is a pretty frustrating discussion With this said, I'll leave it be. Enjoy your weekend... and apologies for expressing my differing opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, oldman9er said: With this said, I'll leave it be. Enjoy your weekend... and apologies for expressing my differing opinion. Lol. It’s not that bad. I just don’t know how anyone who’s watched Payne play this year can honestly say he’s ONLY a 2-down run stuffer or that Vea is a better pass rusher. I think they’re both comparable prospects. The clear difference is their size. Vea weighs 30 pounds more so he’s harder to move because of his size. Payne is still an elite run defender but is also lighter, faster and quicker. They both have shown to be good pass rushers from the NT position either by using the bull rush or a rip move to get pressure on the qb. All their skills being equal, wouldn’t you want the player who’s in better shape, has better stamina and can be on the field more? To me that’s Payne. Vea weighing 30 pounds more means he’s likely to be on the field for less snaps than Payne because of Vea’s weight and Payne is in better shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 2 hours ago, turtle28 said: That was just an example. Feel free to re-watch every game he played from last year. This is a pretty frustrating discussion because obviously I’m having a discussion with someone who’s guessing about Payne’s game and effectiveness. Payne is a 3-down player. Also, all of our DL are rotated. So, even if he is just a player who plays two downs or 70% of the snaps,, that’s right on par with the likes of Jon Allen. Are you going to tell me Jon Allen wasn’t a good draft choice at 17 because he’s part of a DL rotation and doesn’t play every single snap of the game? A later round guy? What? Please! A later round guy is very likely to not even make the team while Payne is a day 1 starter, and a starter for a decade as long as we re-sign him. He wasn't all that great tbh, except for that National Championship game. And the Georgia guys he dominated in the trenches that game? Lamont Gaillard and Kendall Baker, who are both going to be a 5th year seniors next year and will probably go in the 5th round or later in the 2019 draft, if lucky. Not exactly the creme-de-la-creme of interior line talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 1 hour ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said: He wasn't all that great tbh, except for that National Championship game. And the Georgia guys he dominated in the trenches that game? Lamont Gaillard and Kendall Baker, who are both going to be a 5th year seniors next year and will probably go in the 5th round or later in the 2019 draft, if lucky. Not exactly the creme-de-la-creme of interior line talent. He was Alabama’s best interior defensive lineman. So, essentially he was the best interior defensive lineman on the best interior defensive line in the entire country. NFL.com compares Payne’s size/speed/strength and athleticism combination to Nadamokong Suh. I don’t think Payne is exactly that good, but I do think he’s every bit the prospect Vita Vea is as an interior run defender, a better motor than Vea and offers more pass rush ability than Vea. As others have said though, I’d take either. I just favor Payne, his versatility and better athletic ability over Vea slightly. https://www.nfl.com/prospects/da'ron-payne?id=32462018-0002-5600-68ba-6b48873dba9b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, turtle28 said: He was Alabama’s best interior defensive lineman. So, essentially he was the best interior defensive lineman on the best interior defensive line in the entire country. NFL.com compares Payne’s size/speed/strength and athleticism combination to Nadamokong Suh. I don’t think Payne is exactly that good, but I do think he’s every bit the prospect Vita Vea is as an interior run defender and I think Payne has a better motor and offers more pass rush ability than Vea. As others have said though, I’d take either. I just favor Payne and his versatility and better athletic ability over Vea slightly. And? The best DL in the NFL last year was probably Philly or Minnesota, and that's because of their depth, similar to Alabama. None of the guys on those teams is the best defensive lineman in the NFL, just like Payne is not the best defensive lineman in the draft. Vea is the better pass rusher. Vea is the better run defender. An argument can easily be made that Vea is more athletic, adjusting for his weight. Give me Vea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 22 minutes ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said: And? The best DL in the NFL last year was probably Philly or Minnesota, and that's because of their depth, similar to Alabama. None of the guys on those teams is the best defensive lineman in the NFL, just like Payne is not the best defensive lineman in the draft. Vea is the better pass rusher. Vea is the better run defender. An argument can easily be made that Vea is more athletic, adjusting for his weight. Give me Vea. So, there’s this guy named Fletcher Cox, perhaps you’ve heard of him and he’s arguably the best interior DL in the entire NFL outside of Aaron Donald. We’re obviously not going to agree here. Again, I’d take either guy but for the exact reasons you think Vea is better are the exact reasons I think Payne is better so, I’m not sure how we solve that disagreement except to see how their careers go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, turtle28 said: So, there’s this guy named Fletcher Cox, perhaps you’ve heard of him and he’s arguably the best interior DL in the entire NFL outside of Aaron Donald. Which means he's not the best DL in the NFL, like I said. Just like Payne isn't the best interior DL in this draft. 7 minutes ago, turtle28 said: We’re obviously not going to agree here. Again, I’d take either guy but for the exact reasons you think Vea is better are the exact reasons I think Payne is better so, I’m not sure how we solve that disagreement except to see how their careers go. What makes you think Payne is a better pass rusher and run stopper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 18 minutes ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said: Which means he's not the best DL in the NFL, like I said. Just like Payne isn't the best interior DL in this draft. What makes you think Payne is a better pass rusher and run stopper? Watching him anchor the Alabama defense for the past two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 21 minutes ago, turtle28 said: Watching him anchor the Alabama defense for the past two years. Pretty sure Allen was their anchor last year. And how much have you watched of Vea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 1 minute ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said: Pretty sure Allen was their anchor last year. And how much have you watched of Vea? Payne played NT for Bama, meaning he was the anchor on their DL and for their run defense the last two seasons. With Payne anchoring the middle of the DL and stuffing the run it helped everyone. That’s not taking away anything from Allen, just pointing out how well Payne has played as a run defender at Bama since he’s arrived on campus. I’ve watched them both a lot. Again, I love them both! I don’t think we can go wrong with drafting either. IMO it’s splitting hairs between the two, but I slightly favor Payne over Vea. I know Vea is a great player, he’s also a stout run defender who moves exceptionally well for his size and in some ways compares to Haloti Nagata. My preference would be to get Payne though but I’m certainly not against Vea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 I thought it was pretty well known Vita is a better pass rusher than Payne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 18 minutes ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said: Payne plays with a lot more talent around him on defense and was rotated out more than Vea so, Payne has other players who will gobble up stats while Vea gets those stats as not as many other players are making plays around him. Also, do I have to mention that you can’t really compare the talent level of the PAC10 offensive lineman to the SEC offensive linemen. Payne faced better competition throughout the year, had more talented players around him which took stats away from him and I’m not 100% sure but I’d be willing to bet that Payne played less snaps than Vea did so again, that would lead to less opportunities to make plays. Again though, I don’t dislike Vea, I’d be floored if we took either him or Payne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 58 minutes ago, turtle28 said: Payne plays with a lot more talent around him on defense and was rotated out more than Vea so, Payne has other players who will gobble up stats while Vea gets those stats as not as many other players are making plays around him. Also, do I have to mention that you can’t really compare the talent level of the PAC10 offensive lineman to the SEC offensive linemen. Payne faced better competition throughout the year, had more talented players around him which took stats away from him and I’m not 100% sure but I’d be willing to bet that Payne played less snaps than Vea did so again, that would lead to less opportunities to make plays. Again though, I don’t dislike Vea, I’d be floored if we took either him or Payne. Not sure if I would use the "level of talent around him" argument here to make your case after a season in which we saw Preston Smith and Matt Ioanidis's (the two guys who lined up next to him) stats dramatically start declining when Jonathan Allen went down with the Lisfranc injury. Being surrounded by great players should lead to better stats, not worse. I agree about your point regarding the level of competition though. Payne also has a big age advantage over Vea. Those are the only two things he really has going for him over Vea IMO. But you're welcome to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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