ESPN Top 74 NBA Players of All-Time

[J-ALL-DAY]

1 hour ago, Bullet Club said:

On what planet has Kawhi had a better career than Pippen?

He's just flat out better. His last two postseason runs top anything Pippen ever has done and he won a ring as the clear cut #1 last season. There is no version of Pippen that was better than the Kawhi that carried the Raptors to a title. If you want to argue longevity? Cool, Kawhi doesn't have that. But you have him being debated as being better than Durant or LeBron right now…..Durant who is in his prime and LeBron still playing at a high level. Pippen was not at Durant or LeBron level. 

[Mox]

1 minute ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

He's just flat out better. His last two postseason runs top anything Pippen ever has done and he won a ring as the clear cut #1 last season. There is no version of Pippen that was better than the Kawhi that carried the Raptors to a title. If you want to argue longevity? Cool, Kawhi doesn't have that. But you have him being debated as being better than Durant or LeBron right now…..Durant who is in his prime and LeBron still playing at a high level. Pippen was not at Durant or LeBron level. 

So if you could have either players career you would say that you would rather have elite Kawhi for 2.5 seasons, 2 seasons of all star play, and 3 seasons of role player play over Scottie Pippen's entire career? That's uhhh...bold. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

4 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

So if you could have either players career you would say that you would rather have elite Kawhi for 2.5 seasons, 2 seasons of all star play, and 3 seasons of role player play over Scottie Pippen's entire career? That's uhhh...bold. 

I think Kawhi is flat out better right now than Pippen ever was. Kawhi from 15-16 has been playing at a high level and is a better lead dog. Kawhi has peak performances that Pippen can't match. Again, if you want to go the longevity route that is fine. But I don't really need Kawhi to do this for say two or three more seasons to make it official. One guy is legitimately being debated as being better than two other top 15 players of all time who are still playing at extremely high levels. Enough said. 

[Mox]

5 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

I think Kawhi is flat out better right now than Pippen ever was. Kawhi from 15-16 has been playing at a high level and is a better lead dog. Kawhi has peak performances that Pippen can't match. Again, if you want to go the longevity route that is fine. But I don't really need Kawhi to do this for say two or three more seasons to make it official. One guy is legitimately being debated as being better than two other top 15 players of all time who are still playing at extremely high levels. Enough said. 

I don't think anybody would debate Kawhi is better than Pippen. Comparing their careers is a different story. The greatest player of all time lists are a career achievement. If it was only how good someone was at their peak Bill Walton would be in everyone's top 20.

[J-ALL-DAY]

1 minute ago, Bullet Club said:

I don't think anybody would debate Kawhi is better than Pippen. Comparing their careers is a different story. The greatest player of all time lists are a career achievement. If it was only how good someone was at their peak Bill Walton would be in everyone's top 20.

It’s not like Pippen had 9 or 10 elite seasons. That didn't happen and even by his last season in Chicago he was starting to slip and was breaking down. Kawhi after this season will have four All NBA sections while Pippen had seven total in his career while never reaching Kawhi's peak nor getting close to the postseason level Kawhi has been in his last two trips. If you need to see Kawhi do it for two or three more seasons that is fine, but I know what I see and what this man has done in the postseason. He's better than Pippen flat out and it's not like he only a two year wonder. 

Walton is literally on all these lists due to his short peak play. No one is saying it is only peak level, but Walton is a 2x All NBA performer and still seen by many as a top 50-60 player of all time. 

[Mox]

12 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

It’s not like Pippen had 9 or 10 elite seasons. That didn't happen and even by his last season in Chicago he was starting to slip and was breaking down. Kawhi after this season will have four All NBA sections while Pippen had seven total in his career while never reaching Kawhi's peak nor getting close to the postseason level Kawhi has been in his last two trips. If you need to see Kawhi do it for two or three more seasons that is fine, but I know what I see and what this man has done in the postseason. He's better than Pippen flat out and it's not like he only a two year wonder. 

Walton is literally on all these lists due to his short peak play. No one is saying it is only peak level, but Walton is a 2x All NBA performer and still seen by many as a top 50-60 player of all time. 

Yeah, I don't find your arguments convincing in the slightest. It's not consistent and a dumb take.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Bullet Club

[J-ALL-DAY]

2 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

Yeah, I don't find your arguments convincing in the slightest. It's not consistent and a dumb take.

Um okay? What exactly isn't consistent? And you responded to my post, not the other way around. LMAO at saying Kawhi over Pippen is a dumb take when we are talking about the most convincing argument for one player is having three more good seasons while the other has two postseason runs the other can't come close to touching while winning a title as the clear cut #1………Something Pippen never did. Oh, and then you admit Kawhi is better than Pippen and this is a dumb take? Ha! Now that is hilarious. 

If Pippen had 10 or 11 All NBA caliber seasons than that is one thing but that never happened. So you can take the inferior player who had a few more seasons at playing top 10-15 level while I'll gladly take the clear superior player who can carry teams and win a ring as the #1 option…. 

[Mox]

40 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Um okay? What exactly isn't consistent? And you responded to my post, not the other way around. LMAO at saying Kawhi over Pippen is a dumb take when we are talking about the most convincing argument for one player is having three more good seasons while the other has two postseason runs the other can't come close to touching while winning a title as the clear cut #1………Something Pippen never did. Oh, and then you admit Kawhi is better than Pippen and this is a dumb take? Ha! Now that is hilarious. 

If Pippen had 10 or 11 All NBA caliber seasons than that is one thing but that never happened. So you can take the inferior player who had a few more seasons at playing top 10-15 level while I'll gladly take the clear superior player who can carry teams and win a ring as the #1 option…. 

You're moving one guy over another because of one title run against half a team. This same guy has played less than half the games of the other player, and a significant portion of his weren't played at that high of a level. Yeah, it's a dumb take. Sports are more complex then Player A was better than Player B at their best. Zion is better than Ja, Ja had a better season than Zion. 

As far as inconsistency, you rank Kobe above both Bird and Duncan, who were both better players than him. If your criteria was consistent you'd take the better player and you didn't. You can keep toss out narrative stuff all you want but I don't really care. I quoted you because you made a dumb statement. It's still a dumb statement.

[seminoles1]

I think everyone can agree that Kawhi at his peak was a better top dog than Pippen. Pippen had a chance in the 1994 playoffs to lead his team to the Finals (and probably would have had the ref swallowed his whistle at the end of game 5 against the Knicks), but he never showed what Kawhi did last season.

I still have Pippen over Kawhi, but it's damn close. Kawhi is a better top dog scoring wise, but Pippen could run an offense to a level Kawhi hasn't approached. I don't think it's dumb to have Kawhi over Pippen at this point, though.

[Mox]

2 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

I think everyone can agree that Kawhi at his peak was a better top dog than Pippen. Pippen had a chance in the 1994 playoffs to lead his team to the Finals (and probably would have had the ref swallowed his whistle at the end of game 5 against the Knicks), but he never showed what Kawhi did last season.

I still have Pippen over Kawhi, but it's damn close. Kawhi is a better top dog scoring wise, but Pippen could run an offense to a level Kawhi hasn't approached. I don't think it's dumb to have Kawhi over Pippen at this point, though.

Damn it Seminoles, we were on such a good streak of agreeing on things.

[seminoles1]

1 minute ago, Bullet Club said:

Damn it Seminoles, we were on such a good streak of agreeing on things.

Haha I know. But I'm a Kawhi stan as well as a Pippen stan, and I don't blame people for putting Kawhi over Pippen even if I disagree.

Don't forget the list took projections into account. Kawhi finishing this current season and playing only 1 or 2 more seasons at that level would make it pretty clearly Kawhi IMO.

[Mox]

23 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

Haha I know. But I'm a Kawhi stan as well as a Pippen stan, and I don't blame people for putting Kawhi over Pippen even if I disagree.

Don't forget the list took projections into account. Kawhi finishing this current season and playing only 1 or 2 more seasons at that level would make it pretty clearly Kawhi IMO.

I...did forget that. That wasn't really part of the debate I was having though.

[J-ALL-DAY]

2 hours ago, Bullet Club said:

You're moving one guy over another because of one title run against half a team. This same guy has played less than half the games of the other player, and a significant portion of his weren't played at that high of a level. Yeah, it's a dumb take. Sports are more complex then Player A was better than Player B at their best. Zion is better than Ja, Ja had a better season than Zion. 

As far as inconsistency, you rank Kobe above both Bird and Duncan, who were both better players than him. If your criteria was consistent you'd take the better player and you didn't. You can keep toss out narrative stuff all you want but I don't really care. I quoted you because you made a dumb statement. It's still a dumb statement.

No, I'm moving a guy who is playing at a level higher than Pippen ever did and one who has had two postseason runs that Pippen could never match. I mean you yourself say Kawhi is better than Pippen at his peak. And who cares about Pippen playing double the games? Once again, you are acting like Pippen had 10 or 11 high level seasons himself....Um, that never happened. He played at a high level for seven seasons. You're acting like I'm moving Kawhi over someone like Dirk who legitimately has 11-12 high level/elite seasons. I already told you Pippen has more longevity than Kawhi, but he doesn't have a crazy amount of longevity like other all timers. So I don't care for Pippen's years with Houston/Portland and saying he played the double amount of games as Kawhi!!!!!!! If you want to rate Pippen higher that is fine, but to say it is a dumb take to rank Kawhi over him is laughable. 

Nothing about my statement was dumb. Want to talk about a dumb statement? That is you saying Durant having 16 months to recover from an Achilles injury over the typical 9 months doesn't make much of a difference. Now that right there was a dumb take.

As for Kobe over Bird and Duncan? No issue ranking the other two over him. They are usually cluttered together on all time lists anyways. And Kobe was legitimately great for 14 seasons playing at a high level and his best was right up there with the other two. I mean both Kobe and Duncan played in a much harder era to dominate statistically opposed to Bird. The 80s and the era today are damn near another sport than the late 90s to when Kobe/Duncan played. I mean we saw Kobe and Duncan match up plenty of times in playoff series when they were in their prime and no one was saying Duncan is so much better or Kobe is so much better. They legitimately were top players together for years while Kobe was in the top 3-5 convo for longer. Those were guys on similar levels....Pippen was clearly inferior to this version of Kawhi and the one we have seen since 2016. 

2 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

I think everyone can agree that Kawhi at his peak was a better top dog than Pippen. Pippen had a chance in the 1994 playoffs to lead his team to the Finals (and probably would have had the ref swallowed his whistle at the end of game 5 against the Knicks), but he never showed what Kawhi did last season.

I still have Pippen over Kawhi, but it's damn close. Kawhi is a better top dog scoring wise, but Pippen could run an offense to a level Kawhi hasn't approached. I don't think it's dumb to have Kawhi over Pippen at this point, though.

Nope, you are a moron for saying this is a toss up. Such a dumb take!!! But I was hoping you would say this after saying Kawhi>Durant in the summer. Because if not, you would have some explaining to do lol.

[RandyMossIsBoss]

Wade should be above Pippen.

 

Also this list is why Twitter the past few days has had so many “If Kobe isn’t in your top 3 don’t even talk basketball with me” takes. I had no idea, thought people were just randomly referring to all time lists in general which usually place Kobe around where ESPN put him.

[resilient part 2]

I have always had a major problem when anyone, usually half the time, puts Magic ahead of Bird on these type of lists.. It's the biggest consistent blunder of all-time IMO. Magic had little to No take over game.. Magic had so many limitations in the half court. He had a set shot basically. No kind of pull up, no turnaround and definitely no takeover game.. Other than one BIG baby hook hardly ever came through in the clutch..

He basically distributed in crunch time for most of his career.

People forget, it was Bird Not Magic that was CPOY, Bird Not Magic that was ROTY. Bird not Magic that took a 25 win team to 60 wins by himself (no McHale Parish etc..)won 3 MVPs before Magic won his first. And in what would have been Bird's 4 straight year in which Bird had his best statistical year and led Boston to the best record in the league, they gave it to Magic.. It was all about the Narrative the league wanted/needed to create and live off the rivalry between Bird and Magic..

In fact it was game after game where opposing teams where always lining up to stop Larry Legend. The pressure of living up to the next "great white hope" and the scrutiny  that came with that is so much more insurmountable that no one NOT growing up during the 80s realizes.. Magic could never hang with that. Magic pumped up his so called stats with his downhill skiing fast break offense in a conference that was as weak or weaker than the Eastern conference now.. 

I was born in the 60s and witnessed all of the 80s first hand.. Not some YouTube follower... Magic for a good part of his career was known as tragic Johnson due to his un-clutch moments. He never really turned that around but instead differed even more under pressure.. While Bird delivered over and over again in the clutch and in Big games.

Not that Lebron's opinion maters, but he caught some slack for leaving Magic off his mount Rushmore *Bird-Jordan-Dr J-Lebron

Having said all that, Magic was a one of a kind facilitator who deserves to be mentioned as an all-time great.. If someone puts him the top 10, no problem, if someone else leaves him just outside, no problem. But Having Magic above Bird is just flat out incompetent as it gets..