NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

[GSUeagles14]

4 hours ago, VanS said:

You gotta love the revisionist history here.   First of all, Alvin went in the 3rd round.  If he was universally viewed as a "stud" then how does he fall that low in the draft with no character flaws (as was the case with Joe Mixon and Dalvin Cook who both still went ahead of him in the 2nd round)?  And its funny that you now claim he was "very productive" at UT when his production (or lack thereof) was one of the biggest criticisms against him leading up to the draft.  Are you conveniently forgetting the "he never had more than 18 carries in a game" stat that being used against him?  I had to deal with people criticizing his lack of big time stats especially in comparison to the likes of Fournette, Cook, and McCaffery.

Its funny how after a guy becomes a superstar in the NFL for a couple of years history is completely rewritten.  Mahomes is getting similar treatment.  Before the 2017 draft almost nobody was that high on him.  He was being viewed as just another air raid QB.  And now everyone wants to act like they knew he would be the next big thing from the start.  You might not have been on this site (or its predecessor) before the 2017 draft so you might not know this but I was criticized just as much for having Alvin Kamara as my #1 rated RB before the 2017 draft as I was criticized for having Josh Dobbs as my #1 rated QB.  If Alvin was as highly thought of before that draft as you are now claiming then my Josh Dobbs take should've been the only one that had posters going crazy.  But it wasn't.  It was both Kamara and Dobbs.  Alvin just destroyed the league from the jump so everyone conveniently forgot their criticisms of him before the draft.  We're seeing a similar phenomenon right now with Lamar Jackson.

 

Im sorry if you werent paying attention to kamara in college. He never had huge usage but he was very efficient and productive. Maybe pay attention more?

 

And although he was draft in the 3rd, he was the 5th rb taken. Fournette, Mccaffrey, Cook, Mixon and then him... none of them very shocking. It speaks to how rbs are viewed in the draft these days. Again, Kamara was a stud in college, he was a stud in HS as well, history has not been rewritten.... the best i can do for you is suggest, again, pay more attention.

[GSUeagles14]

4 hours ago, VanS said:

You do know that for most of Michael Jordan's first 7 years in the NBA people were saying he was just a selfish scorer who was not as great as Magic and Bird because they were winners.  Then Jordan finally got an all-star teammate next to him and went on to win 3 straight titles.  So was Jordan inferior to Magic and Bird in the 80s or was his supporting cast just not that good but he was actually as great as he was later in his career from the start?

I'm of the opinion that guys don't just transform over time.  You don't go from average to superstar in an off-season.  You are what you are.  If everyone doesn't see your all-world talent early on then that's on them for not seeing it.  We didn't need to see 2019 to know Lamar Jackson was an elite football player.  In the same regard, if Josh Allen blows up this year like Lamar did last year then he didn't just become elite over this off-season.  He was always this good.  He just needed the pieces around him to come along to the point his talent could be fully utilized.

wow.... well your first paragraph is just wrong. As well as your second actually. 

 

And to be clear, im not rooting against any of the many, many players that you were high on that turned out to be complete busts. I really hope Josh Dobbs continues to be a nfl QB and gets paid as much as he can. heck, maybe in 25 years after hes earned those millions he can live in a really nice neighborhood. Maybe that neighborhood has a super involved HOA, maybe they even organize an over 50 mens football league. That, that is when Josh Dobbs will really shine and we will know all along that the NFL just didnt know what they were doing.

[ET80]

5 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

Im sorry if you werent paying attention to kamara in college. He never had huge usage but he was very efficient and productive. Maybe pay attention more?

 

And although he was draft in the 3rd, he was the 5th rb taken. Fournette, Mccaffrey, Cook, Mixon and then him... none of them very shocking. It speaks to how rbs are viewed in the draft these days. Again, Kamara was a stud in college, he was a stud in HS as well, history has not been rewritten.... the best i can do for you is suggest, again, pay more attention.

[ET80]

5 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

wow.... well your first paragraph is just wrong. As well as your second actually. 

 

And to be clear, im not rooting against any of the many, many players that you were high on that turned out to be complete busts. I really hope Josh Dobbs continues to be a nfl QB and gets paid as much as he can. heck, maybe in 25 years after hes earned those millions he can live in a really nice neighborhood. Maybe that neighborhood has a super involved HOA, maybe they even organize an over 50 mens football league. That, that is when Josh Dobbs will really shine and we will know all along that the NFL just didnt know what they were doing.

[ET80]

12 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Josh Allen is following the typical arc of a very good NFL QB who came from a small time college program and needed to learn a lot.

I don't think anyone dislikes Josh Allen. In fact, this debate has established what you've said - I actually don't think a single person here disagrees with Allen being in the NFL top 100, or being listed as an ascending QB. We're all in lockstep on that one (which is incredible, if you think about it - the site at large is NEVER in lockstep on something like this, but the general consensus is that we like Josh Allen as a QB and he's bound for some big things).

What we don't agree with is simple: While Josh Allen was instrumental for the Bills, he wasn't the "driving force" of the Bills making the playoffs; That would be the #2 ranked defense in football with arguably the best secondary in football. From there, another point raised was that Allen extended drives to keep that #2 defense rested; Buffalo was near the bottom in TOP and average drive length, so and point about "resting defense" was disproven.

The discussion should have ended around that point, to be honest. But, here we are. I don't know what we're arguing at this point, but I know a dunk when I see em, so I'm giving em out along with footballs...

[ET80]

5 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

And although he was draft in the 3rd, he was the 5th rb taken. Fournette, Mccaffrey, Cook, Mixon and then him... none of them very shocking.

This deserves a dunk on its own...

[SkippyX]

5 hours ago, ET80 said:

I don't think anyone dislikes Josh Allen. In fact, this debate has established what you've said - I actually don't think a single person here disagrees with Allen being in the NFL top 100, or being listed as an ascending QB. We're all in lockstep on that one (which is incredible, if you think about it - the site at large is NEVER in lockstep on something like this, but the general consensus is that we like Josh Allen as a QB and he's bound for some big things).

What we don't agree with is simple: While Josh Allen was instrumental for the Bills, he wasn't the "driving force" of the Bills making the playoffs; That would be the #2 ranked defense in football with arguably the best secondary in football. From there, another point raised was that Allen extended drives to keep that #2 defense rested; Buffalo was near the bottom in TOP and average drive length, so and point about "resting defense" was disproven.

The discussion should have ended around that point, to be honest. But, here we are. I don't know what we're arguing at this point, but I know a dunk when I see em, so I'm giving em out along with footballs...

I watched the 1991 Eagles and I will tell you that they could have used a 2nd year Josh Allen as a driving force.

• This says they may have been the best defense in NFL history. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2020/historical-dvoa-estimates-revisited
  • 2nd best pass D and 2nd best run D from 1950-present. 
  • The #2 overall DVOA D was closer to the #25 overall than they were to those Eagles.
• Horrendous Slop at QB meant they did not make the playoffs.
  • Jim McMahon's reanimated corpse did have 4 really good games 
    • Their QBs had 9 TDs and 24 picks in the other 12 games
      • Highlights may exist somewhere of that Brad Goebel Tampa game but I will never look

My answer is that the D was #2 and Josh Allen was not even a top 12 QB but he was a driving force on a limited offense that did enough to ensure they were a playoff team.

 

 

[ET80]

24 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

My answer is that the D was #2 and Josh Allen was not even a top 12 QB but he was a driving force on a limited offense that did enough to ensure they were a playoff team.

 

I'll let @Yin-Yang answer this... Heck, he even breaks down the GWDs:

On 7/31/2020 at 3:51 PM, Yin-Yang said:

“Main reason the Bills made the playoffs”

Offensive DVOA: 21st

Defensive DVOA: 6th

Offensive PPG: 23rd

Defensive PPG: 2nd

Offensive points/drive: 24th

Defensive points/drive: 2nd

Offensive yards: 24th

Defensive yards: 3rd

Offensive first downs: 20th

Defensive first downs: 6th

Passing yards/TDs: 26th, 24th

Rushing yards/TDs: 8th, 18th

There’s nothing that suggests Allen or the Bills passing offense in general is even the 3rd most important reason they made the playoffs last year...

 

On 8/1/2020 at 12:30 AM, Yin-Yang said:

The Bills offense was 21st in TOP/drive. 26th in plays/drive. 26th in yards/drive. 24th in points/drive. 20th in first downs. 24th in 3D%. 

So yeah, nothing about their drive length in plays, time, points, or first downs really show that the defense was getting extra rest. If anything, the defense was getting less rest than most of the league. Was the Bills O giving the defense lots of time to rest? No. Going on long drives with lots of plays? No. Going on long drives with lots of yards? No. Going on drives to put up points? No. Getting lots of first downs? No. Converting well on their third downs? No. 

Seems pretty evident that the defense “helped out” the offense more than the other way around. I know your favorite thing in the world is the ever-unprovable “eye test”, but you can’t exactly use that here. You are in fact wrong.

So many TDs that the offense was 23rd in scoring. This is supposed to be impressive? As for GWDs, here they are: 

- @ NYJ, Allen throws a TD with 3:07 left on the clock to take a 1 point lead. The Bills defense holds the Jets to 15 total yards on the following drive, turnover on downs. 

- vs Cincy, Gore runs in a TD with 1:50 left on the clock to take a 21-17 lead. The Bills defense intercepts Dalton on the following drive. 

- @ Tennessee, Allen throws a TD to take the lead 14-7, with 9:49 left in the 4th. Bills D/ST force a missed field goal on the following drive. The offense goes three and out, 3 incomplete passes from Allen. Bills D forces the Mariota-Titans to go 3 and out. Then with 4:12 left in the game, the offense runs the clock out, Allen contributing 5 yards on said drive. 

- vs Miami, Allen throws a TD to take the lead 17-14 with 13:55 left in the 4th. Bills hold Miami to 18 yards, punt. Allen gets a first down, punts. Bills force a turnover. Starting on the Miami 16, the Bills offense moves and Allen throws a TD to go up 24-14. Another 3 and out for the defense. Miami drives for a TD, closing the gap at 24-21. Micah Hyde then returns an onside kick for a TD, putting it at 31-21. Bills hold Miami to 19 yards on the following drive to end the game. 

- vs Pittsburgh, Allen throws a TD to take a 17-10 lead with 8:00 in the game. Steelers following drives are a three and out, interception, and interception. 

So one playoff team (pre-Tannehill Titans), no good offenses. Only one game where the lead is taken with under two on the clock. 3 out of 5 actually had 8 minutes or more on the clock when the lead change happened. Every single one had either a defensive turnover or special teams play AFTER the offensive score to take the lead. 

So yeah, color me unimpressed with these “GWDs”. 

If you want to continue, understand the evidence to disprove this stance has been laid out - nearly a month ago, at that.

[VanS]

16 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

Im sorry if you werent paying attention to kamara in college. He never had huge usage but he was very efficient and productive. Maybe pay attention more?

 

And although he was draft in the 3rd, he was the 5th rb taken. Fournette, Mccaffrey, Cook, Mixon and then him... none of them very shocking. It speaks to how rbs are viewed in the draft these days. Again, Kamara was a stud in college, he was a stud in HS as well, history has not been rewritten.... the best i can do for you is suggest, again, pay more attention.

I wish this sentiment existed before April 2017.  It would have been nice to have an assist from you when I was on an island by myself defending Alvin Kamara's NFL potential.  

 

[Soko]

7 hours ago, ET80 said:

I'll let @Yin-Yang answer this...

Bruh I have mentally checked out of this thread...

I’ll let the earlier posts speak for themselves and leave it at that (should’ve been the move in the first place tbh).