Rank the top 25 defensive primes 1980-present

[LuckIsGOAT]

1 minute ago, SBLIII said:

I was just trying to point out how ludacris it is to put Bob Sanders on this list, even more so in the 2nd tier. He was a good player when he was healthy but that's really it.

His impact was enormous.  I guess if you weren't a Colts fan you wouldn't understand how he completely transformed our defense because even the stats as amazing as they are don't do it justice.

[Jotun_Fan]

1 hour ago, LuckIsGOAT said:

Because LT is 2 tiers above. Your list looks good. Willis and Urlacher above above Kuechly, Lambert or Seau is questionable though.

I didn't include Lambert only since I'm not 100% sure how close to his prime he was after 1980, that's solely out of my ignorance. Sometimes players win awards due to their name and reputation later in their career. Willis and Kuechly had similar careers IMO, Willis was more physically gifted while Kuechly was better in coverage. Seau over Urlacher I can concede.

[SkippyX]

Reggie White is a clear 100. He was a bear playing against men.

• In his prime he had 21 sacks in a 12 game season.
  • He was probably the best run defender in the league as well.
  • Smith played around 262, LT around 237, Reggie was around 290
• Reggie had 124 sacks in 121 games as an Eagle.
• After his age 32 season he was still at a sack per game with 137 in 137.
• He had 57 sacks in 44 games from 1986-1988)
• LT had 48 in 40 for his best 3 year period. (1986 to 1988)

Bruce Smith has 2 more sacks than Reggie because he played in 47 more NFL games.

Reggie has 57 more sacks than Taylor in 48 more games.  (* LT had 8 1/2 sacks as a rookie even though they were not officially counted)

 

Sacks per game

• Reggie 0.853  (1.30 per game prime)
• Taylor 0.766 (1.20 per game prime)
• Smith 0.717 (0.98 per game prime)  (1988-90)

Edited September 16, 2020 by SkippyX

[SkippyX]

If you need extra credit for Reggie, read about the #1 DVOA defense in researched history, the 1991 Eagles.

The #2 D is closer to the #20 D than they are to those Eagles.

 

[BlaqOptic]

14 hours ago, LuckIsGOAT said:

Rank them on a scale Madden scale of 100-1. 100 being a top 3 player in NFL History(any position) and 1 being a guy cut on the first day of minicamps

 

100: Lawrence Taylor

98: Roonie Lott, Kenny Easley, Bruce Smith, Aaron Donald, JJ Watt, Bob Sanders, Darrelle Revis

97: Derrick Brooks, Deion Sanders, Jack Lambert, Troy Polamalu, Rod Woodson, Reggie White, Ed Reed, Chris Doleman

96: Luke Kuechly, Ray Lewis, James Harrison, John Randle, Warren Sapp, Jason Taylor, Junior Seau, Mike Singletary, Derrick Thomas

This dude said Bob Sanders at a 98 as if he could sniff Polamalu or Reed's jockstrap, let alone was actually better than them even in his prime. 

[LuckIsGOAT]

1 hour ago, SkippyX said:

Reggie White is a clear 100. He was a bear playing against men.

• In his prime he had 21 sacks in a 12 game season.
  • He was probably the best run defender in the league as well.
  • Smith played around 262, LT around 237, Reggie was around 290
• Reggie had 124 sacks in 121 games as an Eagle.
• After his age 32 season he was still at a sack per game with 137 in 137.
• He had 57 sacks in 44 games from 1986-1988)
• LT had 48 in 40 for his best 3 year period. (1986 to 1988)

Bruce Smith has 2 more sacks than Reggie because he played in 47 more NFL games.

Reggie has 57 more sacks than Taylor in 48 more games.  (* LT had 8 1/2 sacks as a rookie even though they were not officially counted)

 

Sacks per game

• Reggie 0.853  (1.30 per game prime)
• Taylor 0.766 (1.20 per game prime)
• Smith 0.717 (0.98 per game prime)  (1988-90)

Reggie White is amazing but he doesnt have a case vs LT. In 50 fewer games LT had 56 forced fumbles. Compared to 32 from Reggie White.

Also as great as LT was as a pass rusher he's 2x as good vs the Run. By far the best run defender in the history of the NFL. His ability to chase down backs from the backside was unstoppable

[SkippyX]

36 minutes ago, LuckIsGOAT said:

Reggie White is amazing but he doesnt have a case vs LT. In 50 fewer games LT had 56 forced fumbles. Compared to 32 from Reggie White.

Also as great as LT was as a pass rusher he's 2x as good vs the Run. By far the best run defender in the history of the NFL. His ability to chase down backs from the backside was unstoppable

1st, where are you getting those forced fumble numbers. The Pro Football HoF says 33 for Taylor with 10 recoveries.

• Doesn't Reggie have 33 with 20 recoveries?
• Did you use Wikipedia?

 

Robert Mathis has 54, is he better than Reggie and LT?

Edited September 16, 2020 by SkippyX

[SkippyX]

FYI, I consider both guys to be Madden 100s.

I'd love to have them both. Parcells and George Young actually had the chance to add Reggie in the USFL supplemental draft. (Young took Gary Zimmerman instead)

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/myers-lt-reggie-giants-teammates-article-1.1779444

[Jotun_Fan]

13 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

1st, where are you getting those forced fumble numbers. The Pro Football HoF says 33 for Taylor with 10 recoveries.

• Doesn't Reggie have 33 with 20 recoveries?
• Did you use Wikipedia?

 

Robert Mathis has 54, is he better than Reggie and LT?

This is a dumb question, but were forced fumbles recorded until recently?  I tend to go to pro football reference when in doubt but they don't appear to have forced fumble numbers for LT.  There's a video on Youtube documenting Taylor forcing that many fumbles, the quality isn't great obviously and some are borderline, but I think the 33 number is a definite lowball.

Re: White v. Smith- I personally would give the edge to White.  I think White was more power and Smith more agile.  Smith played in a 3-4 and played against some monster LT's and playing Dan Marino twice a year who was notorious for his quick release.  White played against better competition and was probably better against the run but Smith was good at that too.  Maybe Smith's numbers would be inflated due to Buffalo being a relatively high scoring team and getting more chances to sack teams that were behind?  I can't help but think that both Reggie's season and Jerry Rice's season in '87 were anomalies caused by the strike shortened season.  Pure speculation with no merit true, but maybe other teams weren't as prepared as they could have been to stop those two.  I can't help but think that, if the 2020-2021 season finishes we're going to see some anomalies in the stats.

LT v. White-  I think comparing the two players is tough.  Both were great pass rushers, both were great run defenders, both moved around on defense to create matchup problems.  I'd give Taylor an edge for two main reasons. 1)  His position and skill set on the field made it so that he was a threat no matter the play call or direction.  If you ran at him he'd fight off blockers and make a tackle, if you ran away from him he could run the play down from behind.  You could try and run reverses or trick him but he was often quick enough to recover anyway and often diagnosed the plays early enough anyway.  On pass plays he could drop back and cover and was faster than a lot of secondary players.  On goal line situations he could play mlb and stuff rb dives or run down outside runs.  I think normally it's easier for an elite defensive lineman who always has a primary impact on the play up front to make plays, but Taylor was gifted enough in strength, speed, and football intelligence to be involved in a lot of defensive plays.  2) Taylor changed the game in a way I don't think many players have.  OLB rushers are now a prized find in the draft, and I think a lot of modern passing concepts came about as a way to counter LT type players.  If you took the two players in their prime and put them in the NFL today, I think there's a good chance White would clearly be the better player as the league has adapted to counter LT type players.  

[Soko]

8 hours ago, LuckIsGOAT said:

His impact was enormous.  I guess if you weren't a Colts fan you wouldn't understand how he completely transformed our defense because even the stats as amazing as they are don't do it justice.

3 interceptions, 0 TDs, 10 pass deflections, 1 FF, 2 recoveries, 3.5 sacks, 9 TFLs - in two seasons. Yeah, wouldn’t exactly call those amazing stats. I guess he made lots of tackles though...

[LuckIsGOAT]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

3 interceptions, 0 TDs, 10 pass deflections, 1 FF, 2 recoveries, 3.5 sacks, 9 TFLs - in two seasons. Yeah, wouldn’t exactly call those amazing stats. I guess he made lots of tackles though...

I was talking the team stats with/without. No Tampa 2 safety ever has big individual stats, Lynch, Mike Brown are the same.

[Jotun_Fan]

17 hours ago, SkippyX said:

If you need extra credit for Reggie, read about the #1 DVOA defense in researched history, the 1991 Eagles.

The #2 D is closer to the #20 D than they are to those Eagles.

 

Count me as one who wasn't aware just how good that defense was that year.  Looking at their lineup it makes sense, strong players in all 3 defensive groups and what a DL.  That was right around when I started watching football and I'm pretty certain that we recorded that MNF game against the Oilers.  Being all of 7 years old I went to bed early in the game and I seem to remember the game was boring.  I wonder if we still have that cassette lying around.  What happened the next few years, was Jerome Brown just a beast and the DL dropped off that much?

 

15 hours ago, SkippyX said:

FYI, I consider both guys to be Madden 100s.

I'd love to have them both. Parcells and George Young actually had the chance to add Reggie in the USFL supplemental draft. (Young took Gary Zimmerman instead)

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/myers-lt-reggie-giants-teammates-article-1.1779444

That would have been an absolute nightmare for quarterbacks in the league for a good 4 years until LT started to slow down a bit.  Curious how Belichick and Parcells would have used that tandem and how Reggie would do in a 3-4 (or would they go 4-3.)  The NFL probably would start to protect quarterbacks more a little sooner in their history.

 

[SkippyX]

7 minutes ago, Jotun_Fan said:

Count me as one who wasn't aware just how good that defense was that year.  Looking at their lineup it makes sense, strong players in all 3 defensive groups and what a DL.  That was right around when I started watching football and I'm pretty certain that we recorded that MNF game against the Oilers.  Being all of 7 years old I went to bed early in the game and I seem to remember the game was boring.  I wonder if we still have that cassette lying around.  What happened the next few years, was Jerome Brown just a beast and the DL dropped off that much?

 

That would have been an absolute nightmare for quarterbacks in the league for a good 4 years until LT started to slow down a bit.  Curious how Belichick and Parcells would have used that tandem and how Reggie would do in a 3-4 (or would they go 4-3.)  The NFL probably would start to protect quarterbacks more a little sooner in their history.

 

You can watch the House of Pain game on YouTube for a good sample that 1991 team.

Yeah, Jerome was pretty similar to Fletcher Cox. He was just hard to stop in the run game and he could also pressure.

They were still ranked 6 6 6 in yards points and turnovers in 1992.

Reggie left for Green Bay in 1993.

[diamondbull424]

On 9/15/2020 at 8:28 AM, LuckIsGOAT said:

Rank them on a scale Madden scale of 100-1. 100 being a top 3 player in NFL History(any position) and 1 being a guy cut on the first day of minicamps

 

100: Lawrence Taylor

98: Roonie Lott, Kenny Easley, Bruce Smith, Aaron Donald, JJ Watt, Bob Sanders, Darrelle Revis

97: Derrick Brooks, Deion Sanders, Jack Lambert, Troy Polamalu, Rod Woodson, Reggie White, Ed Reed, Chris Doleman

96: Luke Kuechly, Ray Lewis, James Harrison, John Randle, Warren Sapp, Jason Taylor, Junior Seau, Mike Singletary, Derrick Thomas

Other people are taking care of the Bob Sanders stuff, but I’d love your argument as to why those guys are rated above Ray Lewis.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Bob Sanders was a great player, but not a generational impact talent. I'd group him with guys like Nolan Cromwell, Carnell Lake, or Darren Sharper. Maybe if Sanders had stayed healthy my thinking would be different. But since he didn't I'm lukewarm about the shooting star type players. Probably why I'm not that enthralled with someone like Bo Jackson.