Dak's Progression

[plan9misfit]

2 minutes ago, Dallas94Ware said:

I said Dak is playing THE WHOLE GAME better. Not that he is on a whole other level.

Dak makes every throw, and sees the ehole field. Makes reads Carson doesnt and adjustments and audibles. He is playing the whole position, while Carson is still limited in what hes asked to do.

Yeah....umm....that’s....that’s not accurate.

[Dallas94Ware]

4 minutes ago, plan9misfit said:

Yeah....umm....that’s....that’s not accurate.

It is. Carsons play designs have remained markedly simple and he is not asked to do what Dak is. Carson is playing great, and im not taking away from him - but hes not be asked to run the offense in the way Dak has been asked to do.

Edit -

Wentz play designs are often a two read option. This is a signature staple of his success, allowing him to ease better into the NFL considering the jump from where he played in college. Its smart by his staff to allow him to keep it more straight forward.

Dak on the other hand, has multiple option routes several play calls per drive, which is tough in itself, but also is stuck in a pure read based system where every play he has multiple reads to work through. More pro oriented. But where he played, it makes sense.

Wentz will get there, he has to, to stay in this NFL. But right now he isnt being fed the same heavy spoonfuls as Dak. And with good reason.

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

1 hour ago, Dallas94Ware said:

It is. Carsons play designs have remained markedly simple and he is not asked to do what Dak is. Carson is playing great, and im not taking away from him - but hes not be asked to run the offense in the way Dak has been asked to do.

Edit -

Wentz play designs are often a two read option. This is a signature staple of his success, allowing him to ease better into the NFL considering the jump from where he played in college. Its smart by his staff to allow him to keep it more straight forward.

Dak on the other hand, has multiple option routes several play calls per drive, which is tough in itself, but also is stuck in a pure read based system where every play he has multiple reads to work through. More pro oriented. But where he played, it makes sense.

Wentz will get there, he has to, to stay in this NFL. But right now he isnt being fed the same heavy spoonfuls as Dak. And with good reason.

Literally everything you just said is completely untrue, but keep on believing what you like there buddy.

[Danger]

12 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Literally everything you just said is completely untrue, but keep on believing what you like there buddy.

My question is, It seems to me that Dak struggles if there isn't a wide receiver that is absolutely open. He doesn't like to throw into tight coverage, and when he has to, it's certainly one of the things he needs to work on.

As for everything Dak is asked to do, throw to the open receivers and if they aren't absolutely open, throw a dump off to Zeke who's good for 5-10 yards basically no matter what. That right there is called hyperbole. That's what Dak did today, yes, but in general those are his tendencies, he's a much "safer" QB. Carson does more pre-snap reads, but during the play Dak is quicker to analyze the field and get to whomever is open. It's when tight coverage happens that Dak seems to have a bit of a shortcoming. They are two very different QBs. It's comparing apples to Oranges. 

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

2 minutes ago, Danger said:

My question is, It seems to me that Dak struggles if there isn't a wide receiver that is absolutely open. He doesn't like to throw into tight coverage, and when he has to, it's certainly one of the things he needs to work on.

As for everything Dak is asked to do, throw to the open receivers and if they aren't absolutely open, throw a dump off to Zeke who's good for 5-10 yards basically no matter what. That right there is called hyperbole. That's what Dak did today, yes, but in general those are his tendencies, he's a much "safer" QB. Carson does more pre-snap reads, but during the play Dak is quicker to analyze the field and get to whomever is open. It's when tight coverage happens that Dak seems to have a bit of a shortcoming. They are two very different QBs. It's comparing apples to Oranges. 

I don't deny that Dak is good at what he does. He can find the open man at a high rate and tends to make solid throws. He doesn't turnover the ball that much, and he understands what his job is.

But trying to claim that what Wentz is doing is less impressive than Dak is nothing short of comical. I am not going to sit here and pretend I know the Eagles and Cowboys offenses well enough to make drastic claims about how one QB is running the system compared to the other(although it seems other posters will), but Wentz is flat out not being babysat this season at all. He is commanding the offense and is incredibly good pre snap. On top of that, he has been very decisive on his reads this season and is not making nearly as many poor decisions as last year.

Personally, i think that Dak's job is still easier than Carson. He isn't being asked to do as much because he doesn't have to. They have an elite running game that dictates how their offense will operate. When opposing teams have taken away the run, he has struggled compared to when they haven't. That isn't to say Dak isn't good, it is just how he operates. He isn't being asked to make a ton of hard throws to cover WRs or to be the main weapon on offense. He is asked to throw to open receivers, limit mistakes, and make plays once the run has opened up the pass a little bit. This is a great recipe for success as those things all compliment the Cowboys team very well. Does that mean his ceiling isn't as high or that he is dependent on the system? Not at all, it is just the reality of the Cowboys offense. Right now I don't think Dak is very good at throwing accurately into coverage, which is why I think Dez has fallen off since Dak has taken over. This is also likely why he is so risk adverse and plays so safe. He will likely improve on these things, but those are his weaknesses currently imo.

But if you are going to claim that Carson is being babysat in Philly you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

[DaBoys]

Throwing to open WRs. Lol Dak's stupid. 

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

7 minutes ago, DaBoys said:

Throwing to open WRs. Lol Dak's stupid. 

It isn't a knock on him, just a reality of his roll in the Cowboy's offense.

[DaBoys]

1 minute ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

It isn't a knock on him, just a reality of his roll in the Cowboy's offense.

It's a goofy argument. Part of/most of a QBs job is to be under extreme distress and be able to analyze a D and "find the open man." 

 

Carson Wentz, when he is holding on to the ball for 45 seconds and accumulating 145 sacks doing so, guess what he is doing? Looking for a receiver that is what? 

Open.

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

17 minutes ago, DaBoys said:

It's a goofy argument. Part of/most of a QBs job is to be under extreme distress and be able to analyze a D and "find the open man." 

 

Carson Wentz, when he is holding on to the ball for 45 seconds and accumulating 145 sacks doing so, guess what he is doing? Looking for a receiver that is what? 

Open.

Again not a knock at all. Simply a fact. Dak often has more open receivers to throw to because the Cowboys have a dominate running game which opposing teams have to account for. Wentz doesn't benefit from this nearly as much as our running game is not nearly as good. 

Yeah, Wentz has a tendency to hold to the ball too long at times. It is a double edge sword, sometimes he makes massive plays because of it and sometimes he eats sacks he shouldn't because of it. It is an issue, but I think he will improve on it. Wentz has lots of issues, but also a lot of upside.

[Danger]

It really wasn't supposed to be a knack on Dak. What is somewhat concerning if you're a fan of Dak, from my perspective is that he seems to not do as well when throwing into tighter coverage. He also is less willing to take a chance and go for the bigger play. Yeah, that'll probably result in fewer interceptions and that works for you guys because of how stellar your running game is. Carson has his areas to improve, Dak has his.

[Dallas94Ware]

1 hour ago, Danger said:

My question is, It seems to me that Dak struggles if there isn't a wide receiver that is absolutely open. He doesn't like to throw into tight coverage, and when he has to, it's certainly one of the things he needs to work on.

As for everything Dak is asked to do, throw to the open receivers and if they aren't absolutely open, throw a dump off to Zeke who's good for 5-10 yards basically no matter what. That right there is called hyperbole. That's what Dak did today, yes, but in general those are his tendencies, he's a much "safer" QB. Carson does more pre-snap reads, but during the play Dak is quicker to analyze the field and get to whomever is open. It's when tight coverage happens that Dak seems to have a bit of a shortcoming. They are two very different QBs. It's comparing apples to Oranges. 

How many Tds this year were perfectly delivered balls in tight space? That beauty to Witten last week, the one hander, as an example. Dak delivers in tight coverage more than moat young Qbs do. Not sure what you are observing - do you mean the few missed throws early in the season, the 5 or 6 that sailed just a bit? Those happen to even Brady.

As for Wentz - not sure if you observe the play designs much, but thats my fetish as a former coach and a recent divorcee and all that. Its what gives me my jollies lately, even Wentz is not asked to make the three and four tier reads very often at all, maybe here and there. But typically he is allowed tokeep it simple. And this is NOT against Carson. It is good coaching. He played at a much slower pace and talent level in college. For him to succeed right now it needs to be kept simpler for him and allow him to ease into those rougher reads.

For example, last week, first Td pass the.long one to Hollins:

A specific route underneath where the receiver never even turns to look for the ball. The alternate outside route breaks inward around 12 yards in, while Hollins shoots the safeties in an attempt to split them. Simple play design with GREAT timing on the call due to the safety playing closer to the split area in what appears to be an owl coverage. Wentz has a simple choice to make: If the safety remains in position at the end of the timing/footwork, its a deep shot to Hollins. If he follows Hollins at the end of the timing, its the in route he has to hit. If neither is open, he lives to fight another day either by checkdown, throw away or scramble. Straight forward play design with limited choices.

Second Td, red zone score to Ertz. This is a basic motion and throw technique. Carson determines man or zone based on presnap motion of his choosing. Once determined, he can utilize the fade in an isolated zone or utilize the man coverage mismatch in Ertz. The other receivers were either extra protection or routes that had a clear intent to pull coverage away from the two main target options. Carson determined the coverage style and utilized Ertz as the play design called for.

Carson is showing he will be really good in this league. But his play designs are still simplified for him and with very good reason. To ask of him what is asked of Dak right now would be very unwise and be pretty poor coaching. Carson comes from a division of college where the pace was even slower than the others - his system DID expect those reads of him but because the pace was so much slower he did not have to do them at such a rapid fire speed. He is still adapting and that is evident, but NOT a knock on him. A good coach SHOULD shelter him from those choices and let him keep rolling the way he has until he grows even more into what he is showing he can be.

Dak is asked to do far more. The system was never simplified for him outside of some limited route trees early on and leaning heavily on rollouts, waggles etc. But his four tier reads have been part of his offense since day 1, and he has been since asked to make more presnap changes. Not always for the better, either, which is why that has since been far less than those first few weeks of this season. That said, again I still give Dak a leg up here. He is asked to do more and having great success doing it, whereas Carson still hasnt taken that step - not because he wont be able to, but because asking him to do so that early could backfire.

[Dallas94Ware]

1 hour ago, DaBoys said:

 

 

Carson Wentz, when he is holding on to the ball for 45 seconds and accumulating 145 sacks doing so, guess what he is doing? Looking for a receiver that is what? 

Open.

This point here is actually a direct result of the straight forward and often simplified reads they ask of Carson. He is sometimes stuck waiting for one of his two options, the one he has determined as the one who needs to get the ball based on his read, to break separation get the ball to him.

The downside to simplified reads like this is that it often leaves the QB exposed, holding the ball too long, waiting for his man. And if that man doesnt get there or fails to find the gap or gain separation, the result is a sack or, as often with Carson, an escape and run. 

But I dont see Wentz having that problem too often. Honestly theyve done a pretty good job as an offense executing as a whole. 

[DaBoys]

1 hour ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Again not a knock at all. Simply a fact. Dak often has more open receivers to throw to because the Cowboys have a dominate running game which opposing teams have to account for. Wentz doesn't benefit from this nearly as much as our running game is not nearly as good. 

Yeah, Wentz has a tendency to hold to the ball too long at times. It is a double edge sword, sometimes he makes massive plays because of it and sometimes he eats sacks he shouldn't because of it. It is an issue, but I think he will improve on it. Wentz has lots of issues, but also a lot of upside.

Dak has more open receivers? An anecdotal claim no doubt, and I'm being nice. I'd like to see proof that the Dallas Cowboys have been consistently able to create more seperation than the Eagles. I'll tell you why you can't. It's because it's not true. Dez and Witten are not separation guys. Ertz creates more than Witten. Witt's just a huge target, but it's not like, as a TE, he's leading his team in receiving yards like your TE is. Dez isn't exactly Antonio Brown when it comes to precision routes either. Beasley yes, he does create separation in the slot. He is good. But it's not like he leads all WRs on his team in yards like your slot guy does. Wentz is getting(using) more from Nelson and Ertz than Dak is Beasley and Witten. And Zeke has 19 catches in 7 games and suddenly the 2.7 rec/gm is Daks entire roll within the offense?

 

I understand it's not a knock on Dak. It's just a silly anecdotal thing to say. The accompanying obvious pot and kettle assessments are amusing. 

[DaBoys]

For the record I disagree that Wentz is not doing well or just as good. I will willingly admit he has a better arm and is doing some things better than Dak. But he has 22 sacks 5 picks and 7 fumbles. Dak has 9 sacks 4 picks and 1 fumble. He is doing some things better than Wentz. 

 

D94W is probably in the minority here. Wentz was our forums favorite QB coming out that year. We aren't surprised he's doing well.

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

15 minutes ago, DaBoys said:

Dak has more open receivers? An anecdotal claim no doubt, and I'm being nice. I'd like to see proof that the Dallas Cowboys have been consistently able to create more seperation than the Eagles. I'll tell you why you can't. It's because it's not true. Dez and Witten are not separation guys. Ertz creates more than Witten. Witt's just a huge target, but it's not like, as a TE, he's leading his team in receiving yards like your TE is. Dez isn't exactly Antonio Brown when it comes to precision routes either. Beasley yes, he does create separation in the slot. He is good. But it's not like he leads all WRs on his team in yards like your slot guy does. Wentz is getting(using) more from Nelson and Ertz than Dak is Beasley and Witten. And Zeke has 19 catches in 7 games and suddenly the 2.7 rec/gm is Daks entire roll within the offense?

 

I understand it's not a knock on Dak. It's just a silly anecdotal thing to say. The accompanying obvious pot and kettle assessments are amusing. 

Being open and getting separation are not directly correlated at all. You can get open by separating, but you can also be open via scheme, which is clearly what I am alluding to when I state that the running game opens up the pass. I am not claiming your receivers get more separation, never have. I am claiming that because Zeke and your Oline provide a dominate running game(fact) that opposing defenses have to scheme towards stopping that(fact) which therefore makes Dak job easier as it takes the focus off the passing game and creates holes in defenses. It isn't anecdotal, it happened numerous times today, it has happened numerous time in previous games, and it is fairly easy logic to follow.

Also I agree Dez and Witten aren't separation guys. When is Witten getting the ball? When he finds a hole in the zone aka when he is open. Your statement about Dez not separating is literally what I said earlier and is evidence that Dak is not confident at throwing to covered receivers. Dez has flat out not had the same impact since Dak came to town? Has he regressed some? Maybe, but it is more likely that Dak just isn't as good as getting him the ball as Romo was. Romo was extremely good at throwing accurate jump balls and tight window throws, Dak isn't. That is why Dez's numbers have dropped.

So no, not anecdotal, and certainly not hypocritical. Dak is very good and throwing safe passes and being efficient. He isn't an incredibly accurate QB who can fit the ball in tight pockets consistently, at least not yet. If you disagree I would question how you think he was so incredibly efficient as a rookie? Your receivers had a very low drop rate(I believe the lowest in the league). So either your QB was incredibly accurate and your receivers were all extremely reliable(less likely) or they had fewer contested catches because they were open when the ball was thrown to them(much more likely). Was he really that accurate? Or was he just executing the offense well? My conclusion is that he was throwing to open receiver more often and checking down when people were covered, which again is not a bad thing. It just points to the fact that he is much more risk adverse than a QB like Wentz. Is one style better or worse? I don't know, they both seem to be successful in their own ways.

As far as the broad conjecture of the Eagles offense based on four plays in one game, I will say it is highly likely you don't know what is actually happening on the field. The game is too complicated to completely understand what a team's offense is doing by just watching the tape, if that was the case your offense wouldn't be successful past a few weeks. Carson is doing way more than you are giving him credit for in terms of reading the field both pre and post snap. If he was actually on training wheels(which he absolutely isn't), there would be plenty of people talking about it, not just you. @Dallas94Ware