Weighing Futures of Ryan Pace and Matt Nagy

[Sugashane]

5 hours ago, dll2000 said:

It will be interesting to me to see what people say and observe their attitudes after Rams game.  

Offseason is nearly always full of trust and optimism.  Then you play the games.  

 

Especially if we end up 8-9 and just miss the playoff while having a losing record under Dalton.

 

I have little to no faith that he is much better than a low end starter but I'm hoping he surprises me.

[dll2000]

50 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Especially if we end up 8-9 and just miss the playoff while having a losing record under Dalton.

 

I have little to no faith that he is much better than a low end starter but I'm hoping he surprises me.

I actually think Dalton is okay.   That isn't my point.   I just don't have faith he can come in on a one year deal and succeed at a high level.   Which is exactly how the entire Bears community felt before they drafted Fields.   I can't believe the collective amnesia at how down everyone was when Dalton was the answer at QB pre-draft.  

I also place very little value on Fields watching Dalton learn an offense and take vast majority of key reps as the best path to get better himself.  

If we had taken Dalton last year to compete with Mitch and he won job and did okay last year I would feel better about this plan.   I still wouldn't agree with it, but logic of it would make a lot more sense to me.

What we are doing is just stupid IMO.  

It makes me not respect Nagy as a coach.   I think his saving grace is his staff is excellent at moment.

I get that he wants to take all pressure off Fields and let him learn at his pace.   But Fields isn't asking for that and he isn't a raw project QB.   Yes he is a rookie and will do rookie things, but he can play now with an intensive offseason program.   He doesn't need the slow learner tract plan.  He can go to the gifted class.

I get that GB is stacked and MN is good and TB is stacked and so on.  But 2021 is not a year where it is impossible to win.  You never know what can happen.  Rodgers may sit out.   Brady could hit wall or get hurt.   MN is always beatable.   

We have some decent players on this team.   Get the rookie ready and go try to win now.  Let him get better through season.   Even if he fails, you got a whole season of experience and tape to build off, which is better than a season of riding the pine.

 

 

[soulman]

6 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Especially if we end up 8-9 and just miss the playoff while having a losing record under Dalton.

 

I have little to no faith that he is much better than a low end starter but I'm hoping he surprises me.

I have a higher estimation of Dalton than this.  He's held his own when playing on some pretty bad teams and won when he's played on good teams.

He's not the guy whose gonna make everyone around him better but his skill set is a far better match than Foles and his ability to actually read a defense and make the correct decisions it several levels higher than Trubisky.  I don't see us getting blown out of games when Dalton is starting.

[dll2000]

11 hours ago, soulman said:

I have a higher estimation of Dalton than this.  He's held his own when playing on some pretty bad teams and won when he's played on good teams.

He's not the guy whose gonna make everyone around him better but his skill set is a far better match than Foles and his ability to actually read a defense and make the correct decisions it several levels higher than Trubisky.  I don't see us getting blown out of games when Dalton is starting.

What a standard.

Dalton QB1: At least we won’t get blown out.

That was what Fox brought to table and everybody loves that man to this day.  Not.  

In Fox offseason it was finally: a professional is at the helm.  He will stabilize things.   

He did.  He did exactly what he said he would do.  And nobody cares.   Hurray we lost 14-22.   Zzzzzzz.   

Everybody tolerates this kind of thing when you aren’t playing games.   When you lose by any margin people hate it.  

A loss by 40 counts same as a loss by 1.   I’d rather risk losing by 40 and try to win the game.

And lets not rewrite history.  Foles was the perfect match.

Experience in system and with coaches.  A past winner, etc.

Problem was - and @WindyCitypointed this out time and again when we acquired him - he can’t play with a bad o line, he needs a clean pocket, and the Bears had a bad oline.

Hence we got what we got.

 

 

[soulman]

59 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

What a standard.

Dalton QB1: At least we won’t get blown out.

That was what Fox brought to table and everybody loves that man to this day.  Not.  

In Fox offseason it was finally: a professional is at the helm.  He will stabilize things.   

He did.  He did exactly what he said he would do.  And nobody cares.   Hurray we lost 14-22.   Zzzzzzz.   

Everybody tolerates this kind of thing when you aren’t playing games.   When you lose by any margin people hate it.  

A loss by 40 counts same as a loss by 1.   I’d rather risk losing by 40 and try to win the game.

And lets not rewrite history.  Foles was the perfect match.

Experience in system and with coaches.  A past winner, etc.

Problem was - and @WindyCitypointed this out time and again when we acquired him - he can’t play with a bad o line, he needs a clean pocket, and the Bears had a bad oline.

Hence we got what we got.

 

 

Sorry brother but your impatience to "get on with it with Fields" is showing again (did it ever stop) even when you know that Nagy isn't gonna back off of his "plan" that Dalton will get the #1 reps in camps and start the season.  It's like hoping TFG stops lying.  That ain't ever gonna happen.

I guess you could always hope for Dalton to get injured in camp or preseason but it appears that's the only way that Fields is gonna get his shot before Dalton does.  It's Nagy's *** whose in the sling so if it proves to be the wrong approach maybe we get a new HC for Fields in 2022.

Frankly I don't see any reason to push back against it at least for now.  It is what it is.  If Dalton does step on his **** and we're losing every game I'll probably change my song later in the season but for now what's the use.  Nagy and Pace have their minds made up.

[dll2000]

30 minutes ago, soulman said:

Sorry brother but your impatience to "get on with it with Fields" is showing again (did it ever stop) even when you know that Nagy isn't gonna back off of his "plan" that Dalton will get the #1 reps in camps and start the season.  It's like hoping TFG stops lying.  That ain't ever gonna happen.

I guess you could always hope for Dalton to get injured in camp or preseason but it appears that's the only way that Fields is gonna get his shot before Dalton does.  It's Nagy's *** whose in the sling so if it proves to be the wrong approach maybe we get a new HC for Fields in 2022.

Frankly I don't see any reason to push back against it at least for now.  It is what it is.  If Dalton does step on his **** and we're losing every game I'll probably change my song later in the season but for now what's the use.  Nagy and Pace have their minds made up.

No, it never stopped.  

I am not a sit and watch to learn guy.   Learn by doing with instruction is only way to go to me.  Learning by watching without application is slow and inefficient way to do things.

I have been upfront about that since beginning.   I think when people point to success stories it is correlation not causation.

I have coached 1000s of kids and never was it better for them to just watch than to do and be instructed.   

Parents came to every practice.   If I had the kids standing around watching things I would have been lynched.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[soulman]

15 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

No, it never stopped.  

I am not a sit and watch to learn guy.   Learn by doing with instruction is only way to go to me.  Learning by watching without application is slow and inefficient way to do things.

I have been upfront about that since beginning.   I think when people point to success stories it is correlation not causation.

I have coached 1000s of kids and never was it better for them to just watch than to do and be instructed.   

Parents came to every practice.   If I had the kids standing around watching things I would have been lynched.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, you've coached 1000s of kids and I agree that you're no novice when it comes to this but you still ain't coaching the Bears.  That's MY point.

I'm willing to wait and watch which way the waves break before heading into deep water which also seems to be the way Nagy and Pace are playing it and even if I strongly disagreed what good would it do?  It's gonna be played out their way not yours and not mine.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

Edited July 23, 2021 by soulman

[dll2000]

2 hours ago, soulman said:

Yes, you've coached 1000s of kids and I agree that you're no novice when it comes to this but you still ain't coaching the Bears.  That's MY point.

I'm willing to wait and watch which way the waves break before heading into deep water which also seems to be the way Nagy and Pace are playing it and even if I strongly disagreed what good would it do?  It's gonna be played out their way not yours and not mine.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

It's their decision of course.  Not mine.  

All decisions can be criticized futility by fans.  Ultimately they will be judged on outcomes.

My being a youth coach wasn't an appeal to authority or expertise.  It carries little weight.  Who cares if you coached 12 year olds?

  Just saying I don't agree with that method of teaching.

 

 

 

[soulman]

None of us are gonna be completely satisfied until Fields is behind center and we can begin to evaluate him in terms of is he the guy or not.

I would prefer it to be sooner than later myself but I'm also of the opinion that until I see game to game cohesiveness out of our OL I'd prefer not to risk Fields getting injured or just beat up on because we can't pass block.

Castillo and Nagy need to very quickly decide on their top five and work them in place until they know each other like Siamese Quintuplets.

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

51 minutes ago, soulman said:

None of us are gonna be completely satisfied until Fields is behind center and we can begin to evaluate him in terms of is he the guy or not.

 

If we had no Fields waiting in the wings I guarantee you all many of us would have taked ourselves into Dalton.  My own position on him is that he's maybe a tiny upgrade over Mitch.  I had a lot of time to think driving in from west South Dakota today (hint: don't do this as Nebraska is intolerable) but maybe Dalton and Mitch may both be pretty medicore, but I feel like the ways in which Dalron is mediocre may suit Nagy's offense as he wants to scheme guys open, let a play develop, and then have someone pick the obvious open guy and get the ball nearby.  Mitch couldn't do that, but maybe Dalton kinda can?  Full disclaimer: I'd managed to come to the same conclusion about Foles last season. 

 

[Sugashane]

5 hours ago, dll2000 said:

And lets not rewrite history.  Foles was the perfect match.

Experience in system and with coaches.  A past winner, etc.

Problem was - and @WindyCitypointed this out time and again when we acquired him - he can’t play with a bad o line, he needs a clean pocket, and the Bears had a bad oline.

Hence we got what we got.

You trying to get me ranting? I hated the Foles move. Lol

The comparisons for his situation there compared to here are further off than the Alex Smith to Foles comparisons. 

I want Fields in asap but I'm afraid this is too much like the rookie year for Trubisky under Fox/Loggains. I think Nagy still is a poor playcaller and we're squandering another young QBs rookie year. The team isn't bad in any stretch like Tru's rookie supporting cast but if the OL is a flop I'd rather Dalton be the one who gets the hell beat out of him. 

So I'm kind of torn.

[Heinz D.]

9 hours ago, soulman said:

Frankly I don't see any reason to push back against it at least for now.  It is what it is.  If Dalton does step on his **** and we're losing every game I'll probably change my song later in the season but for now what's the use.  Nagy and Pace have their minds made up.

Well, for now. I still think it's probable the scenario I envisioned unspools how I predicted...but I still wouldn't be at all surprised if Fields wins the job outright. 

[soulman]

3 hours ago, RunningVaccs said:

If we had no Fields waiting in the wings I guarantee you all many of us would have taked ourselves into Dalton.  My own position on him is that he's maybe a tiny upgrade over Mitch.  I had a lot of time to think driving in from west South Dakota today (hint: don't do this as Nebraska is intolerable) but maybe Dalton and Mitch may both be pretty medicore, but I feel like the ways in which Dalron is mediocre may suit Nagy's offense as he wants to scheme guys open, let a play develop, and then have someone pick the obvious open guy and get the ball nearby.  Mitch couldn't do that, but maybe Dalton kinda can?  Full disclaimer: I'd managed to come to the same conclusion about Foles last season. 

 

I'd call that a good initial take on Dalton.  What we'll soon find out is whether or not his ability to read coverage and his accuracy will make up for the kind of mobility Mitch had.  If our running game can produce well above what it has been producing and Nagy will finally stick with it then Dalton's passing becomes less important other than being able to hit key 3rd down throws and not turning the ball over.

He's not a great deep ball guy either but he doesn't have to be in order to still be better than Mitch at that.

Really, I drive through Nebraska nearly every year when I go back to Wisconsin.  At least Nebraska has gas and food stops every 50 miles or so which is not always that case in South Dakota or Wyoming.  Driving back from a weekend band gig in the North Dakota oil patch a few years ago our drummer insisted we take the CanAm Highway rather than the route I'd planned out on the way up through Wyoming.

It was a Sunday and as we drove through small towns everything was closed including the gas stations.  We nearly ran out of gas before we finally found this outpost at some place called Buzzards Rock or something like that.  It was in the middle of nowhere.  I though any minute I was gonna see Kevin Costner and Graham Greene leading a pack of Sioux chasing the Tatanka.

[soulman]

13 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

Well, for now. I still think it's probable the scenario I envisioned unspools how I predicted...but I still wouldn't be at all surprised if Fields wins the job outright. 

I think that's entirely possible as well but where I was coming from is 1) There is no camp competition for #1, so.....2) Dalton gets the lions share of the reps with the 1st string, and.....3) Dalton will start the season as the #1 unless somehow he gets injured in camp.  This will not change no matter how frustrated Bears fandom may become.

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

10 hours ago, soulman said:

I'd call that a good initial take on Dalton.  What we'll soon find out is whether or not his ability to read coverage and his accuracy will make up for the kind of mobility Mitch had.  If our running game can produce well above what it has been producing and Nagy will finally stick with it then Dalton's passing becomes less important other than being able to hit key 3rd down throws and not turning the ball over.

He's not a great deep ball guy either but he doesn't have to be in order to still be better than Mitch at that.

Really, I drive through Nebraska nearly every year when I go back to Wisconsin.  At least Nebraska has gas and food stops every 50 miles or so which is not always that case in South Dakota or Wyoming.  Driving back from a weekend band gig in the North Dakota oil patch a few years ago our drummer insisted we take the CanAm Highway rather than the route I'd planned out on the way up through Wyoming.

It was a Sunday and as we drove through small towns everything was closed including the gas stations.  We nearly ran out of gas before we finally found this outpost at some place called Buzzards Rock or something like that.  It was in the middle of nowhere.  I though any minute I was gonna see Kevin Costner and Graham Greene leading a pack of Sioux chasing the Tatanka.

Yeah we took 20. Don't take 20.

Black hills of south Dakota was fantastic though, at least outside of the tourist stuff. Have some good recommendations for cool stuff to do if you're ever there, including the one decent restaurant we found (it was a shed)