Fitzpatrick likely out indefinitely - Hip Subluxation

[Thaiphoon]

16 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Which is why I didn’t want to sign Fitz at all or a QB like him. For me, It was either trade for/sign a younger QB w/ upside or draft a QB to compete w/ Heinicke & Kyle Allen. What a waste of a year for the young core/talent on this team. Just a waste of them in their prime. Just awful. Our only saving grace for this season is if Taylor Heinicke or Kyle Allen shock the world and play like a good starter the rest of the season.

But we screwed the pooch there by winning the division last year. I'm really not understanding why people aren't understanding that us being "King of Turd Mountain" last year affected the decisions that were being made. To RR and the braintrust's eyes, it not only precluded us from getting a QB in the draft (where we'd want to get that young QB - 1st round) when we were looking at things in February, but also heightened expectations for this year and changed how we approached things. Which means that they HAD to go with a veteran QB and sign him instead of rolling with Heinecke as the starter and Allen (who was still rehabbing his injury). There was ZERO chance that after we won the division, we'd roll with a QB room of:

Heinecke 

Allen

Drafted Rookie in the 2nd round or later

Look at that ^^^ again. 100% zero chance that RR rolls with that after winning the division and takes the chance on his rebuild taking a huge step back because Heinecke's resume was too short, Allen wasn't guaranteed to be back, and a rookie is raw and unproven.

We've been over this before, but at the time of Free Agency, the decision was that trading/signing a younger journeyman QB wasn't going to get us our QBOTF. It would just create QB controversy in 2022/2023 and beyond when we needed to get the QB we drafted onto the lineup and focus on him. I understood this thinking, which is why I predicted Fitz as the one they would sign.

[Thaiphoon]

14 hours ago, e16bball said:

It’s really this part, more than anything else. 

I keep hearing about how we’ll take someone this year now. Putting aside the issue of whether anyone good is going to end up being within reach this year, the one-year delay in itself is a cause for despondence. 

The defense is good enough to compete now. I still believe that after week one. I’m not convinced they’re going to push for the top spot in the league at this point, as we hoped they might — but they’re good enough to compete with pretty much any other defense they come up against. I also think the offensive roster, aside from QB, is good enough to compete IF you have a good QB and a good defense. Not good enough to match up with really complete offensive groups like TB and CLE, but solid enough to keep up (especially if being elevated by a good QB). 

But all that means little, because barring the ultimate miracle, we just aren’t going to have the QB play. And so another year will slowly tick off the contracts (and the primes) of our young core, while we continue to be too risk-averse to shoot for anything other than reliably mediocre at QB.

Which is why I was pissed about the approach last year (*). We gave up 7 draft spots just to win the division and go one and done. Which pushed us out of reach of the QBs that the braintrust wanted. 

This draft, if there's a guy we want, we now HAVE to trade up to get him, and damn the cost.

 

(*) but I'm a jerk and not a real fan for not wanting us to win the division in a dumpster fire year and set us up better for long term success.

[lavar703]

26 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Which is why I was pissed about the approach last year (*). We gave up 7 draft spots just to win the division and go one and done. Which pushed us out of reach of the QBs that the braintrust wanted. 

This draft, if there's a guy we want, we now HAVE to trade up to get him, and damn the cost.

 

(*) but I'm a jerk and not a real fan for not wanting us to win the division in a dumpster fire year and set us up better for long term success.

Well if things continue the way they did last Sunday we might not have to trade up lol

[Thaiphoon]

5 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

Well if things continue the way they did last Sunday we might not have to trade up lol

I still think they can turn things around. But if we drop this game, then we really all need to be watching the 2022 QBs pretty closely.

And also, if we do manage to draft a 2022 QB and it turns into another Haskins and we then have the opportunity to "draft a Herbert" instead of a generational talent elsewhere? We take the QB. I know why we took Chase as we wanted to continue letting Haskins show what he had (*), but if the QB is not showing us they are not going to be our QBOTF, I'd rather cut bait early than give them more years to continue being mediocre.

 

(*) yes, I know Herbert wasn't the possible target if we went QB.

[turtle28]

I don’t care what anyone says, signing  Fitz never made sense with a young and developing team.

Saying that if we hadn’t won the division that wouldn’t changed things and that’s where we screwed the pooch doesn’t change the fact that signing Fitz never made sense.

Rivera had no control over Haskins screwing the pooch, Allen breaking his ankle and then Alex Smith taking over who stabilized our team allowing us to win 5 games the second half of the season.

Rivera did have control over who we signed to play QB this year. Also, Rivera signed Fitz before the draft. Rivera has been in Bruce Allen mode since after the Ravens near loss of last year when he got upset with Haskins and benched him for Kyle Allen because Rivera thought we could win the division bc of our defense & Kyle Allen’s ability to run the offense correctly. 
 

Rivera thinks “WE’RE CLOSE!” He’s proven that he’s thinking like Bruce Allen and has been for the last 11 month. I think it’s fools gold, I don’t think this team as currently constructed is “close” to being a contender.

Edited September 16, 2021 by turtle28

[Thaiphoon]

2 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I don’t care what anyone says, signing  Fitz never made sense with a young and developing team.

Saying that if we hadn’t won the division that wouldn’t changed things and that’s where we screwed the pooch doesn’t change the fact that signing Fitz never made sense.

For the 1000th time. None of the other QBs we would've signed were going to be our QBOTF. In fact, some of them would have done pretty much exactly what Fitz was predicted to do here and then we would've signed them to an extension out of fear that we'd be "letting a young QB get away". We did that with Kirk. This organization wasn't going to do that again.

You want to see Heinecke sometime this year? Fitz was the guy you wanted to sign. Because anyone else would've kept Taylor on the bench IMHO. 

Think of what we were looking at in Feb as an organization. We weren't drafting a QB in the 1st this year when we're staring at #19. We needed to sign a QB so we didn't roll into the year with the guy with the most experience being Allen (who was still rehabbing).

The point I made and will repeatedly make is this. The fact that Fitz is as old as he is is a feature to me. It means that no matter what he does in terms of play...no matter how much we like him...his days are numbered. I don't want a 26 year old journeyman QB teasing us with "just enough" stats and ability to make RR and the braintrust not go up and get our QBOTF. I want to force their hand.

Quote

Rivera had no control over Haskins screwing the pooch, Allen breaking his ankle and then Alex Smith taking over who stabilized our team allowing us to win 5 games the second half of the season.

I said at the time, you play Haskins no matter what. 

No.Matter.What

It did two things. Either he continued to suck, in which case your draft position for one of the QBs in 2021 got better. Or he improved, in which case you might be able to unload him for a late 3rd day pick. We did neither.

Quote

Rivera did have control over who we signed to play QB this year. Also, Rivera signed Fitz before the draft. Rivera has been in Bruce Allen mode since after the Ravens near loss of last year when he got upset with Haskins and benched him for Kyle Allen because Rivera thought we could win the division bc of our defense & Kyle Allen’s ability to run the offense correctly. 

See my first comment. We weren't rolling into this year with Allen as our "old head" in the QB room. Not a chance in FA were we going to skip on signing a QB. The rest I agree with. The push the win the division in 2020 hurt us long-term. Which I predicted.

Quote

Rivera thinks “WE’RE CLOSE!” He’s proven that he’s thinking like Bruce Allen and has been for the last 11 month. I think it’s fools gold, I don’t think this team as currently constructed is “close” to being a contender.

Amen. And since we won the division last year, he can't afford to drop back to a top-5 pick in 2022. That would be an indication that the team was going the wrong way and would hurt his "reconstruction" of the team.

[turtle28]

@Thaiphoon newsflash, we don’t agree. I think we could’ve signed Sam Darnold & I think he could’ve been a QBOTF for us like he may be for Carolina. I also wouldn’t have signed Fitz. He’s Just not a guy to be excited about, he’s not even been as consistent as Case Keenum has been at times in his Career. Fitz isn’t even an averages starter.

You Keep what you have in Allen & Heinicke - who are similar to Fitz as guys who can be below average at best average starters & the ther FAs we could’ve signed - but Heinike/Allen are younger/developing and have upside that Fitz & those veteran QBs don’t have and then, you also trade up in the draft as well to take whichever QB falls to the 3rd or 4th QB in the draft.

A forward thinking GM/HC would’ve done that. That would’ve been their plan, PERIOD! 
 

Rivera thought we were close to being a contender bc of our defense & if he could just make our offense average we would be a contender! He is/was wrong! Signing Fitz was a mistake, it was a bridge to nowhere.

Edited September 17, 2021 by turtle28

[Thaiphoon]

7 hours ago, turtle28 said:

@Thaiphoon newsflash, we don’t agree. I think we could’ve signed Sam Darnold & I think he could’ve been a QBOTF for us like he may be for Carolina. I also wouldn’t have signed Fitz. He’s Just not a guy to be excited about, he’s not even been as consistent as Case Keenum has been at times in his Career. Fitz isn’t even an averages starter.

You Keep what you have in Allen & Heinicke - who are similar to Fitz as guys who can be below average at best average starters & the ther FAs we could’ve signed - but Heinike/Allen are younger/developing and have upside that Fitz & those veteran QBs don’t have and then, you also trade up in the draft as well to take whichever QB falls to the 3rd or 4th QB in the draft.

A forward thinking GM/HC would’ve done that. That would’ve been their plan, PERIOD! 
 

Rivera thought we were close to being a contender bc of our defense & if he could just make our offense average we would be a contender! He is/was wrong! Signing Fitz was a mistake, it was a bridge to nowhere.

Newsflash for you. This is because we won the division last year. This has been my entire point. Winning the division changed the calculus around how we go about filling in holes in the roster. 

There was zero chance that, having won the division (*) and at pick #19, that they were going to go into this season with Allen as the QB with the most experience on the roster.

Zip.

Zilch.

Nada.

So signing a vet was what they were gonna do. It was obvious.

As for Darnold, I want nothing to do with him. And I am darned sure know he's not going to be anyone's QBOTF for very long. I think inside of about 4 more years, the starting jobs will no longer be attainable for him. Should take that long for his current stint to wear out in Carolina and enough GMs and coaches to finally realize that he's not a franchise QB. Plus there was no way RR was giving up a 6th in 2021 and a 2nd and 4th in 2022 for a guy that the Jets couldn't wait to get rid of.

 

(*) again. I need to say this again and again. Winning the division changed where we picked, and who we picked and it changed the decision making for free agency. Because there's no way in hell that RR is going to have his "rebuild" hit a snag in year 2 after going to the playoffs last year. We were in "Win now" mode last year when we should've been in "develop players and position for the QBOTF in 2021 draft" mode. Now we're in "win now" mode on steroids. And we're not going to go back to develop mode. This is why I was so pissed about how we approached the season last year. It was a missed opportunity to set us up long-term to get our QBOTF and not have us play a 1st place schedule in 2021 while this team was still raw.

[turtle28]

@ThaiphoonYou’re feelings about Darnold are how I feel/felt about signing Fitz. Sadly, so far Darnold looks like more of a better option we could’ve made than Fitz has. 
 

Also, I get that we were looking for a vet to sign to hopefully remain mediocre or slightly better after we won the division, but again me, ME I never did agree with that approach. I don’t give a flying whatever what they thought, I’m just saying IMO it was an awful strategy regardless if we won the division or not last season, that’s irrelevant to me because they still could’ve drafted a QB heck, even if it wasn’t by trading up for Fields or Jones.
 

They could’ve drafted Mond or Trask at 19, or as it so happens, they could’ve drafted either with the 51st pick in the 2nd round instead of cutting Moses for Cosmi. Or, preferably, if they didn’t want to trade up for Fields/Jones - which is obvious bc they didn’t do it - they could’ve traded back 5 to 10 picks, or even further and ended up with two 2nds & other picks and taken one of those QBs & JOK, Nick Bolton or Cosmi with their second 2nd round pick.

We needed a young QB to develop this offseason and still need a young QB to be drafted next draft so he can be developed into a starter on this team. We could’ve done that last draft regardless of winning the division & picking 20th or not, and we should have. We also could’ve kept Moses and drafted Trask or Mond instead of Cosmi in round 2 which I would’ve been fine with also.

For someone who’s intelligent as you, I don’t know why you’re not comprehending what I’m saying, I wouldn’t have had the plan they did or done what they did.

I fully understand what the plan was but I never agreed with it even after they won the division. You accepted what the plan was after we won the division and decided that you wanted Fitz out of the options we had to chose from as a veteran QB, I never accepted their plan, I was always against it. I always thought it was a bad idea to sign a mediocre vet or trade for one who was near or over 30 regardless if we had won the division or not.
 

Now if they had been able to trade for Rodgers, Stafford or if Watson didn’t have his issues, that was a different story, of course I was on board for that.

I was against signing Fitz, Cam, Tyrod etc or trading for Bridgewater or Marriotta. My entire focus was always on the draft and if they were going to add a young QB they should add a young one like Sam Darnold who has tons of talent & potential still, he just needed a new situation and better weapons around him. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by turtle28

[MikeT14]

13 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

You’re feelings about Darnold are how I feel about Fitz. Sadly, so far Darnold looks like more of a better option we could’ve made than Fitz has. 

Let's see how he does not playing a bottom 5 team. 

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, MikeT14 said:

Let's see how he does not playing a bottom 5 team. 

That’s fair, but if anyone’s argument is that Darnold doesn’t have a higher ceiling than signing a 39-year old Fitz then I’m going to have to disagree with you there.

[Thaiphoon]

2 hours ago, turtle28 said:

@ThaiphoonYou’re feelings about Darnold are how I feel/felt about signing Fitz. Sadly, so far Darnold looks like more of a better option we could’ve made than Fitz has. 
 

Also, I get that we were looking for a vet to sign to hopefully remain mediocre or slightly better after we won the division, but again me, ME I never did agree with that approach. I don’t give a flying whatever what they thought, I’m just saying IMO it was an awful strategy regardless if we won the division or not last season, that’s irrelevant to me because they still could’ve drafted a QB heck, even if it wasn’t by trading up for Fields or Jones.
 

They could’ve drafted Mond or Trask at 19, or as it so happens, they could’ve drafted either with the 51st pick in the 2nd round instead of cutting Moses for Cosmi. Or, preferably, if they didn’t want to trade up for Fields/Jones - which is obvious bc they didn’t do it - they could’ve traded back 5 to 10 picks, or even further and ended up with two 2nds & other picks and taken one of those QBs & JOK, Nick Bolton or Cosmi with their second 2nd round pick.

We needed a young QB to develop this offseason and still need a young QB to be drafted next draft so he can be developed into a starter on this team. We could’ve done that last draft regardless of winning the division & picking 20th or not, and we should have. We also could’ve kept Moses and drafted Trask or Mond instead of Cosmi in round 2 which I would’ve been fine with also.

For someone who’s intelligent as you, I don’t know why you’re not comprehending what I’m saying, I wouldn’t have had the plan they did or done what they did.

I fully understand what the plan was but I never agreed with it even after they won the division. You accepted what the plan was after we won the division and decided that you wanted Fitz out of the options we had to chose from as a veteran QB, I never accepted their plan, I was always against it. I always thought it was a bad idea to sign a mediocre vet or trade for one who was near or over 30 regardless if we had won the division or not.
 

Now if they had been able to trade for Rodgers, Stafford or if Watson didn’t have his issues, that was a different story, of course I was on board for that.

I was against signing Fitz, Cam, Tyrod etc or trading for Bridgewater or Marriotta. My entire focus was always on the draft and if they were going to add a young QB they should add a young one like Sam Darnold who has tons of talent & potential still, he just needed a new situation and better weapons around him. 

We have a young QB to develop. That was Heinecke. Drafting a QB in the 2nd or 3rd is not a good idea in that (I believe E16 pointed it out) that non-1st rounders typically don't do much in their careers.

As for the draft? Sure. They could've done that. But this braintrust wasn't going to do that. I would've loved for them to trade up to get Fields or Jones. But I also knew they weren't gonna do it. They also weren't going to spend a 1st on Mond or any of the others. That's overdrafting and a bad idea.

As for comprehending your plan, I absolutely do. I disagree on the target. You wanted to bring in Darnold. A guy so bad that 2 years after he was drafted with the #3 pick, his team was ready to give him away. That's fools gold. And keeps us on the treadmill of mediocrity. I want to be off that treadmill as fast as possible. Which is why signing a young QB (who has already busted) was off my list.

[turtle28]

13 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

We have a young QB to develop. That was Heinecke. Drafting a QB in the 2nd or 3rd is not a good idea in that (I believe E16 pointed it out) that non-1st rounders typically don't do much in their careers.

As for the draft? Sure. They could've done that. But this braintrust wasn't going to do that. I would've loved for them to trade up to get Fields or Jones. But I also knew they weren't gonna do it. They also weren't going to spend a 1st on Mond or any of the others. That's overdrafting and a bad idea.

As for comprehending your plan, I absolutely do. I disagree on the target. You wanted to bring in Darnold. A guy so bad that 2 years after he was drafted with the #3 pick, his team was ready to give him away. That's fools gold. And keeps us on the treadmill of mediocrity. I want to be off that treadmill as fast as possible. Which is why signing a young QB (who has already busted) was off my list.

Heinicke is 28, he’s not young. Their plan is awful. If anything their young QB they are hell bent on developing is Kyle Allen still who is 25. He’s the guy that Rivera said after last season he felt that he could’ve done what Alex Smith did for Washington during the 2020 season, totally once again downplaying Alex Smith’s importance to the team winning 5 straight games going from 2-7 to 7-9 and winning the NFC East. 

Darnold was effd by the Jets, don’t play dumb and act like you don’t know that he was put in the worst situation of any of the QBs in that draft. Darnold has the tools & potential more than a Heinicke even to still be a great QB & he’s 4 years younger than Heinicke.

I mean by your logic you wouldn’t want Heinicke, he’s way more busted than Darnold. Heinicke was out of the league, had to be a back up in the XFL and was out of the league again until his buddy Scotty needed a QB because we had run through our 3 in DC last year.

Why believe in Heinicke more than Darnold?

The treadmill of mediocrity is named Ryan Fitzpatrick. That’s what he’s been his whole career. What a waste of $10 mil in cap space that could’ve gone to upgrade our LB corps more or another position more.

Edited September 17, 2021 by turtle28

[MikeT14]

4 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Heinicke is 28, he’s not young. Their plan is awful. If anything their young QB they are hell bent on developing is Kyle Allen still who is 25. He’s the guy that Rivera said after last season he felt that he could’ve done what Alex Smith did for Washington during the 2020 season, totally once again downplaying Alex Smith’s importance to the team winning 5 straight games going from 2-7 to 7-9 and winning the NFC East. 

Darnold was effd by the Jets, don’t play dumb and act like you don’t know that he was put in the worst situation of any of the QBs in that draft. Darnold has the tools & potential more than a Heinicke even to still be a great QB & he’s 4 years younger than Heinicke.

I mean by your logic you wouldn’t want Heinicke, he’s way more busted than Darnold. Heinicke was out of the league, had to be a back up in the XFL and was out of the league again until his buddy Scotty needed a QB because we had run through our 3 in DC last year.

Why believe in Heinicke more than Darnold?

The treadmill of mediocrity is named Ryan Fitzpatrick. That’s what he’s been his whole career. What a waste of $10 mil in cap space that could’ve gone to upgrade our LB corps more or another position more.

We'll see. You've definitely crossed the "stand on the table" Rubicon for Darnold. He's got his chance to prove you right. 

[turtle28]

20 minutes ago, MikeT14 said:

We'll see. You've definitely crossed the "stand on the table" Rubicon for Darnold. He's got his chance to prove you right. 

Well don’t get me wrong, I love Heinicke & I would’ve re-signed him too, I just don’t know that he makes us anything better than mediocre. If I had my choice last offseason I would’ve traded for Darnold or traded up for Fields or Jones in the draft after we didn’t get Stafford, then re-signed Heinicke and then either re-signed Allen or drafted a QB like Trask or Mond to develop too if we had traded for Darnold.

Edited September 17, 2021 by turtle28