Former NFL player Phillip Adams found to have severe CTE / Discussion on CTE and the future of the NFL

[CKSteeler]

Incognito is one of guys who thinks Neil deGrasse Tyson is brilliant and that Bill Nye is a scientist. 

I've argued this in the past. CTE is mostly junk science. There is little showing that  most of the supposed symptoms of CTE are really more prevalent for NFL players or in those with observed signs of CTE. Outside elevated risk of cognitive decline in old age, the last I looked NFL players were actually at a lower risk of most of the supposed risk factors. 

Every time an athlete does something stupid there's people who try and link it to CTE and think they're following the science. As if even if you could prove the individual has CTE, that you could then prove it caused a certain behavior when they can't even demonstrate that there is a real correlation with said behaviors.

 

[Matts4313]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

In no way was my intent to criticize you, and I apologize if it came off that way. What I'm saying is, per the bolded/underlined, compared to WHAT? A life without any sports? A life without contact sports? A profession that doesn't involve potential risk factors? What does doubling it every year mean? When does this start? Why aren't we looking at other sports with trauma? Are there genetic factors? Etc.

As for the "not having the funding" questions, when you wantonly only use damaged/perceived to be damaged brains in the study, that's confirmation bias. I'd legitimately love to see a wider range, more who never played football, more damaged brains/suspected CTE from those that never played football, more healthy brains from football, etc. and evaluate all of that to come up with viable and legitimate data.

I pulled a study for this. They concluded its roughly 6%. They said 3% for non athletes and 9% for athletes. 

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, CKSteeler said:

Incognito is one of guys who thinks Neil deGrasse Tyson is brilliant and that Bill Nye is a scientist. 

I've argued this in the past. CTE is mostly junk science. There is little showing that  most of the supposed symptoms of CTE are really more prevalent for NFL players or in those with observed signs of CTE. Outside elevated risk of cognitive decline in old age, the last I looked NFL players were actually at a lower risk of most of the supposed risk factors. 

Every time an athlete does something stupid there's people who try and link it to CTE and think they're following the science. As if even if you could prove the individual has CTE, that you could then prove it caused a certain behavior when they can't even demonstrate that there is a real correlation with said behaviors.

 

I mean, you're the guy who had the link to the James Harrison cheapshot on Colt McCoy in his signature for quite some time, so pardon me if I take everything you say on brain damage with several grains of salt.

[MWil23]

Just now, Matts4313 said:

I pulled a study for this. They concluded its roughly 6%. They said 3% for non athletes and 9% for athletes. 

I guess here's what I'm saying:

I played 4 years of football and got 1 concussion. I also was a DB, LB, and QB (backup QB). My concussion was on special teams.

I also played college baseball, and I got 2 confirmed concussions playing baseball and 1 unconfirmed concussion playing baseball.

Am I an outlier, or am I the norm for those who played college athletics outside of football? Should I be considered more at risk since I used a 2 piece catching mask (they look sweet tbh) as opposed to a hockey mask (they look infinitely less sweet, especially with my eye black tbh)?

I'd love to see more data, and I'm not trolling here.

[incognito_man]

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

In no way was my intent to criticize you, and I apologize if it came off that way. What I'm saying is, per the bolded/underlined, compared to WHAT? A life without any sports? A life without contact sports? A profession that doesn't involve potential risk factors? What does doubling it every year mean? When does this start? Why aren't we looking at other sports with trauma? Are there genetic factors? Etc.

As for the "not having the funding" questions, when you wantonly only use damaged/perceived to be damaged brains in the study, that's confirmation bias. I'd legitimately love to see a wider range, more who never played football, more damaged brains/suspected CTE from those that never played football, more healthy brains from football, etc. and evaluate all of that to come up with viable and legitimate data.

*Compared to the baseline risk (which is unknown currently - as has been stated repeatedly)

*It starts with the very first year (at least per this referenced study. I believe there are other study's that examine the first age of football played and its impact on risk as well, however. But again, this is very nascent - these are good questions. Ones that the NFL should be funding to answer more definitively).

*"We" are looking at "other" sports. All contact sports are being researched. However, none are as rich as the NFL - so one would imagine the NFL has an outsized interest in solving this problem.

*It is not confirmation bias. Don't fall into the trap of using words idiots use. It was simply researching the ENTIRE existing database of evidence available. Literally not confirmation bias whatsoever. Many people would love to see a wider range. In fact, the study discussed earlier examined over 3,000 brains from people of all backgrounds. Of those 3,000, 15 were determined to come from people who played football beyond HS. Of those 15, 10 (67%) had evidence of CTE. These are the sort of numbers you're going to have to accept until more funding becomes available. Those numbers were more than sufficient to be published in the best medical journals of our country though, so I don't see why they wouldn't be good enough for us.

[Matts4313]

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I guess here's what I'm saying:

I played 4 years of football and got 1 concussion. I also was a DB, LB, and QB (backup QB). My concussion was on special teams.

I also played college baseball, and I got 2 confirmed concussions playing baseball and 1 unconfirmed concussion playing baseball.

Am I an outlier, or am I the norm for those who played college athletics outside of football? Should I be considered more at risk since I used a 2 piece catching mask (they look sweet tbh) as opposed to a hockey mask (they look infinitely less sweet, especially with my eye black tbh)?

I'd love to see more data, and I'm not trolling here.

Yeah, and the doctors have none of that information. There is a case study that breaks it down by sport and how long you played in a sport - - but the sample sizes are so incredibly small for each group that it becomes impossible to extrapolate. 

Basically we know nothing of substantive value about CTEs. 

[incognito_man]

10 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I pulled a study for this

lmao

[Matts4313]

Pretty sure both SI and the NYT's (? - it was a major news publication) called it confirmation bias - - or at least described it as that in more words. I dont want to get the thread locked, so I wont quote the other dude. But its all in the thread. 

[sammymvpknight]

It’d be really good to have another player in the game beside the CTE Center at Boston University. When they diagnose CTE in 99% of their player brains…I’m sorry, that’s a big number. Not saying it’s BS…but it’s so big that it really makes be question their interpretations. Other centers with other pathologists, including those that don’t work for a CTE center that gets ton of research money on the topic. It would go a very long way in reducing the perceived risk of bias. 

[Matts4313]

1 minute ago, incognito_man said:

lmao

Bruh you are going to get your own thread locked. 

[incognito_man]

7 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I guess here's what I'm saying:

I played 4 years of football and got 1 concussion. I also was a DB, LB, and QB (backup QB). My concussion was on special teams.

I also played college baseball, and I got 2 confirmed concussions playing baseball and 1 unconfirmed concussion playing baseball.

Am I an outlier, or am I the norm for those who played college athletics outside of football? Should I be considered more at risk since I used a 2 piece catching mask (they look sweet tbh) as opposed to a hockey mask (they look infinitely less sweet, especially with my eye black tbh)?

I'd love to see more data, and I'm not trolling here.

CTE is not related to concussions. It's the subconcussive hits.

https://www.bumc.bu.edu/busm/2018/01/18/study-hits-not-concussions-cause-cte/

If you played 4 years of football, your risk of developing CTE is (130%)^4 = 285% greater than it would have otherwise been had you not.

Again, this is IN GENERAL, and does not control for level of football. I believe there are studies out there that examine risk and position played as well. 

[Matts4313]

3 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

It’d be really good to have another player in the game beside the CTE Center at Boston University. When they diagnose CTE in 99% of their player brains…I’m sorry, that’s a big number. Not saying it’s BS…but it’s so big that it really makes be question their interpretations. Other centers with other pathologists, including those that don’t work for a CTE center that gets ton of research money on the topic. It would go a very long way in reducing the perceived risk of bias. 

Again, it was 99% of people that clearly had CTE while they were living. The brains were donated by families and doctors who had already "diagnosed" them with CTE.

To which the doctor who did the study said 'we still know nothing, Jon Snow'. I dont think the doctor in question is trying to hide the fact that the study has turned into a sham for people/media to misuse. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Matts4313

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, incognito_man said:

CTE is not related to concussions. It's the subconcussive hits.

Okay, so again, do you know how many foul balls glanced off of my mask over the course of the 20+ years I played up through college and beyond? I guess that's what I'm saying here. A left fielder probably doesn't need to worry about it. A catcher on the other hand...similar to a goalie in soccer who is literally never heading a soccer ball, but everyone else on the field...a different story.

[incognito_man]

3 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

It’d be really good to have another player in the game beside the CTE Center at Boston University. When they diagnose CTE in 99% of their player brains…I’m sorry, that’s a big number. Not saying it’s BS…but it’s so big that it really makes be question their interpretations. Other centers with other pathologists, including those that don’t work for a CTE center that gets ton of research money on the topic. It would go a very long way in reducing the perceived risk of bias. 

We do have another studied performed by scientists at the University of Texas Health Science Center.

In fact, it's such a good study that @Matts4313 has (attempted to) cite it numerous times!

I also cited it above.

The results indicated that 67% of people who played football beyond HS (10/15) had evidence of CTE. These brains were among 3,000 test specimens and certainly not "cherry-picked."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190620153548.htm

[incognito_man]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

Okay, so again, do you know how many foul balls glanced off of my mask over the course of the 20+ years I played up through college and beyond? I guess that's what I'm saying here. A left fielder probably doesn't need to worry about it. A catcher on the other hand...similar to a goalie in soccer who is literally never heading a soccer ball, but everyone else on the field...a different story.

Yes, of course. I think everyone understands that distinction.