Rank these defending Superbowl champions in order

[CP3MVP]

6 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Gronk and Cooks at least made it to and contributed to a SB. So they were in the game longer than everyone on the Bucs. 
 

If we go by that logic, don’t count AB, don’t count Godwin. Both of them didn’t even get in the playoffs and then we can talk about all the guys who were off the offensive line for the 2021 Bucs come playoff time. 
 

Straight up the Pats that made the SB would have beat the Bucs who made that divisional game. 

You’re the one saying those guys don’t count so I’m just following your logic. Brown and Godwin played in more games than Edelman did all season, I just pointed that out.

 

The pats team whose defense ranked 31st in DVOA and got owned by a backup is beating the 21 Bucs? They got torched by Big Ben Nick Foles Alex Smith Cam Newton Deshaun Watson but they’re stopping 21 Brady?

Edited February 7, 2022 by CP3MVP

[lancerman]

11 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

You’re the one saying those guys don’t count so I’m just following your logic. Brown and Godwin played in more games than Edelman did all season, I just pointed that out.

 

The pats team whose defense ranked 31st in DVOA and got owned by a backup is beating the 21 Bucs? They got torched by Big Ben Nick Foles Alex Smith Cam Newton Deshaun Watson but they’re stopping 21 Brady?

The Bucs are stopping 2017 Brady and Gronk? 

[CP3MVP]

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

The Bucs are stopping 2017 Brady and Gronk? 

They’re not but they have a better chance than vice versa. I think you’re forgetting that 17 Pats defense lol. Horrible against the pass and horrible against the run(4.7 YPC allowed). LF runs all over them and they have no prayer of doing anything against Tampa’s passing offense.    
 

Just to clarify, you don’t think the 21 Bucs come out of the 17 AFC? 

Edited February 7, 2022 by CP3MVP

[biggie.]

7 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

They’re not but they have a better chance than vice versa. I think you’re forgetting that 17 Pats defense lol. Horrible against the pass and horrible against the run(4.7 YPC allowed). LF runs all over them and they have no prayer of doing anything against Tampa’s passing offense.    
 

Just to clarify, you don’t think the 21 Bucs come out of the 17 AFC? 

Strangely enough, we were 5th in points allowed that season.

[lancerman]

2 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

They’re not but they have a better chance than vice versa. I think you’re forgetting that 17 Pats defense lol. Horrible against the pass and horrible against the run(4.7 YPC allowed). LF runs all over them and they have no prayer of doing anything against Tampa’s passing offense.    
 

Just to clarify, you don’t think the 21 Bucs come out of the 17 AFC? 

No the 21 Bucs wouldn't get past the Jags. That defense was insane. By the time they got to the playoffs, the offensive line of the Bucs was dimished badly and they were just not as strong offensively anymore. The Pats were lucky to get out of that game. 

Also like @biggie. said, the Pats were still top 5 in points allowed. That is a more predicative measure of how the defense would actually perform. They'd bend, but most team struggled to seal the deal. And quite frankly, the 2021 Bucs, at least the one by the end of the season was going to do a solid job at stopping point from getting on the board. People did the same thing with the 2016 Pats. They talked about how low they were in stopping yards and ignored how good they were in PPG for defense....and it didn't work out well. 2017 was that minus taking out a starting CB in the biggest game of the year for reasons everyone in the sport still is perplexed by. 

Really only the Eagles who had the best team in the league and Foles who played out of his mind and had arguably the greatest playoff run of any QB in history without any hyperbole was able to beat them (and the Pats still almost won). And that Eagles team was playing so well, realistically they would have beat anybody and the Pats 2017 Pats were the only team that could actually give them a scare.

This Bucs team limped into the playoffs and had clearly better teams to contend with The Rams proved they were better in the regular season and proved it again. The Packers were an overall better team. The Niners' defense would have kept a potential game in check to have a shot. The 2017 Pats were clearly the best AFC team all year and wasn't particularly close (the Jags were closest). 

[CP3MVP]

7 hours ago, lancerman said:

No the 21 Bucs wouldn't get past the Jags. That defense was insane. By the time they got to the playoffs, the offensive line of the Bucs was dimished badly and they were just not as strong offensively anymore. The Pats were lucky to get out of that game. 

Also like @biggie. said, the Pats were still top 5 in points allowed. That is a more predicative measure of how the defense would actually perform. They'd bend, but most team struggled to seal the deal. And quite frankly, the 2021 Bucs, at least the one by the end of the season was going to do a solid job at stopping point from getting on the board. People did the same thing with the 2016 Pats. They talked about how low they were in stopping yards and ignored how good they were in PPG for defense....and it didn't work out well. 2017 was that minus taking out a starting CB in the biggest game of the year for reasons everyone in the sport still is perplexed by. 

Really only the Eagles who had the best team in the league and Foles who played out of his mind and had arguably the greatest playoff run of any QB in history without any hyperbole was able to beat them (and the Pats still almost won). And that Eagles team was playing so well, realistically they would have beat anybody and the Pats 2017 Pats were the only team that could actually give them a scare.

This Bucs team limped into the playoffs and had clearly better teams to contend with The Rams proved they were better in the regular season and proved it again. The Packers were an overall better team. The Niners' defense would have kept a potential game in check to have a shot. The 2017 Pats were clearly the best AFC team all year and wasn't particularly close (the Jags were closest). 

1.)I completely disagee on the jags. The defense was nice but they were led by Blake bortles and Doug marine. I have no doubt Tampa beat them. The Bucs offensive line got owned by the Rams and they still put up 27 points. Tampa’s offense torched everyone at home all season regardless of who was in the lineup with the exception of the Saints. It should be noted that “great” jags defense got embarrassed by the Steelers the week before the afc title game 

 

2.)Points allowed is outdated metric to describe defense. It doesn’t take into factor strength of schedule special teams turnovers and field position. For example almost every single good QB torched them all season. 21 Brady is better than all those QBs. The 16 pats defense was much better than the 17 one so bad comp. 

 

3.)The 2017 Falcons gave the Eagles “a scare”. They also didn’t get torched like the 17 Pats. 

 

4.)The 21 NFC is much better than the 17 AFC so I’m trying to figure out how this factors into the pats doing better in that conference. The 17 pats aren’t beating the current Rams. Tampa blows threw everyone in the 17 AFC and they’re not giving up 41 points to the damn Eagles 

Edited February 7, 2022 by CP3MVP

[lancerman]

52 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

1.)I completely disagee on the jags. The defense was nice but they were led by Blake bortles and Doug marine. I have no doubt Tampa beat them. The Bucs offensive line got owned by the Rams and they still put up 27 points. Tampa’s offense torched everyone at home all season regardless of who was in the lineup with the exception of the Saints. It should be noted that “great” jags defense got embarrassed by the Steelers the week before the afc title game 

 

2.)Points allowed is outdated metric to describe defense. It doesn’t take into factor strength of schedule special teams turnovers and field position. For example almost every single good QB torched them all season. 21 Brady is better than all those QBs. The 16 pats defense was much better than the 17 one so bad comp. 

 

3.)The 2017 Falcons gave the Eagles “a scare”. They also didn’t get torched like the 17 Pats. 

 

4.)The 21 NFC is much better than the 17 AFC so I’m trying to figure out how this factors into the pats doing better in that conference. The 17 pats aren’t beating the current Rams. Tampa blows threw everyone in the 17 AFC and they’re not giving up 41 points to the damn Eagles 

The Jaguars were great and dangerous and everyone knew it. Bortles was a weak link but they were a power run team anyways. 
 

Everyone always likes to say PPG is an outdated metric… except it’s the only metric that reliably tells you how likely it is for a defense to give up alot of points. DVOA never does that. It will isolate everything but that’s it. Like I said people said the exact same thing about the 2016 Pats all year. Go back 5 years ago and every other thread on this board was how the defense was incredibly overrated… only when it came down to it, all those teams with better metrics in DVOA performed worse and lost come playoff time. The fact is PPG is as valid a metric for defense as there is and it’s one of the predicative come playoff time.

Lastly the Bucs got thrashed in the divisional round two weeks ago. Like the only reason we didn’t have a blow out is because they started crapping the bed with stupid fumbles, blocked punts, and bad snaps. And they still couldn’t pull off a win with all that because of how bad they were doing. No team was houngan to manhandle the 2017 Pats like that. Full stop. The Pats and Eagles were considered far and away the two best teams in the league all year. And once Wentz went down, it was pretty much entirely considered the Pats league at that point until Foles went off in the playoffs. The Bucs were not some power house team all year. They constantly made mistakes that put games in jeopardy. Their secondary was just flat not good. Nearly all year their offense was a rotating table with different guys in and out of the lineup. Gronk missed time early, AB missed half the season, Godwin didn’t finish the season, Fournette was injured the last few games and was activated last minute for the last playoff game. Miller was in and out of the lineup all year and was barely contributing towards the end. Basically Evans was the only reliable skill player at the end and the only one who really didn’t miss too much time. And the offensive line was a mess come playoff time for the Bucs. So even if you want to take them as stronger in the regular season, they weren’t in the post season. 
 

2021 Bucs offensive points per game 30.1

2017 Pats  offensive points per game 28.6

2021 Bucs defensive points per game 20.8

2017 Pats defensive points per game 18.5 

Theres basically a 2.3 to 2.5 variance in both stats that actually tangibly led to points for both teams. One going the Pats way and one going the Bucs way. 
 

Not to mention the Bucs lost more games and didn’t get further in the playoffs, and we’re outright completely outmatched in some games this year, which aside from a week 1 stumble, you could never accuse the Pats in 2017 of being outclassed by an opponent. They also were not nearly as hampered by injuries as the Bucs later in the season. 
 

Also in real life, the Pats were a lot closer to repeating than the Bucs were. The Pats were one good drive away from actually doing it. 
 

Maybe in some on paper only ideal scenario analysis the Bucs were better, but in actual practice they were less dominant, had more injuries, less disciplined and hard worse results. And it’s not like I even slagged on them. I ranked then like 3rd to a team that actually did almost repeat 

[CP3MVP]

4 hours ago, lancerman said:

The Jaguars were great and dangerous and everyone knew it. Bortles was a weak link but they were a power run team anyways. 
 

Everyone always likes to say PPG is an outdated metric… except it’s the only metric that reliably tells you how likely it is for a defense to give up alot of points. DVOA never does that. It will isolate everything but that’s it. Like I said people said the exact same thing about the 2016 Pats all year. Go back 5 years ago and every other thread on this board was how the defense was incredibly overrated… only when it came down to it, all those teams with better metrics in DVOA performed worse and lost come playoff time. The fact is PPG is as valid a metric for defense as there is and it’s one of the predicative come playoff time.

Lastly the Bucs got thrashed in the divisional round two weeks ago. Like the only reason we didn’t have a blow out is because they started crapping the bed with stupid fumbles, blocked punts, and bad snaps. And they still couldn’t pull off a win with all that because of how bad they were doing. No team was houngan to manhandle the 2017 Pats like that. Full stop. The Pats and Eagles were considered far and away the two best teams in the league all year. And once Wentz went down, it was pretty much entirely considered the Pats league at that point until Foles went off in the playoffs. The Bucs were not some power house team all year. They constantly made mistakes that put games in jeopardy. Their secondary was just flat not good. Nearly all year their offense was a rotating table with different guys in and out of the lineup. Gronk missed time early, AB missed half the season, Godwin didn’t finish the season, Fournette was injured the last few games and was activated last minute for the last playoff game. Miller was in and out of the lineup all year and was barely contributing towards the end. Basically Evans was the only reliable skill player at the end and the only one who really didn’t miss too much time. And the offensive line was a mess come playoff time for the Bucs. So even if you want to take them as stronger in the regular season, they weren’t in the post season. 
 

2021 Bucs offensive points per game 30.1

2017 Pats  offensive points per game 28.6

2021 Bucs defensive points per game 20.8

2017 Pats defensive points per game 18.5 

Theres basically a 2.3 to 2.5 variance in both stats that actually tangibly led to points for both teams. One going the Pats way and one going the Bucs way. 
 

Not to mention the Bucs lost more games and didn’t get further in the playoffs, and we’re outright completely outmatched in some games this year, which aside from a week 1 stumble, you could never accuse the Pats in 2017 of being outclassed by an opponent. They also were not nearly as hampered by injuries as the Bucs later in the season. 
 

Also in real life, the Pats were a lot closer to repeating than the Bucs were. The Pats were one good drive away from actually doing it. 
 

Maybe in some on paper only ideal scenario analysis the Bucs were better, but in actual practice they were less dominant, had more injuries, less disciplined and hard worse results. And it’s not like I even slagged on them. I ranked then like 3rd to a team that actually did almost repeat 

1.)Jags they still weren’t better than Tampa. Blake bortles being a weakness is not something to just ignore. Also that “great” defense got owned the weak before the AFC title game. I think 21 Tom Brady is better than 17 Ben but that’s just me.
 

2.)Yeah raw PPG doesn’t tell me how efficient a defense is. People thought the 19 Bucs defense was bad because of PPG. Again do you think the 17 Pats defense is better than the 21 Bucs, this is where this discussion is all coming down to. It should be noted that the Bucs played better defense in their last game than The pats despite playing a better offense.

 

3.)Tampa lost by 3, they did not get “thrashed” despite missing their 2nd and 3rd best players on offense that season(Godwin/Wirfs). You were wrong about the pats being the only team to give the Eagles a “scare” as the Falcons were driving to win the game on their final possession of the divisional round. 
 

4.)Tampa’s secondary was injured all season but were better statistically than the 17 Pats secondary despite playing in a more friendly passing environment. Go figure. 
 

5.)They we’re closer to repeating because they played in a garbage down AFC. If you put Tampa in the 17 AFC they run away with it. 17 pats don’t beat the Rams. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by CP3MVP

[lancerman]

4 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

1.)Jags they still weren’t better than Tampa. Blake bortles being a weakness is not something to just ignore. Also that “great” defense got owned the weak before the AFC title game. I think 21 Tom Brady is better than 17 Ben but that’s just me.
 

2.)Yeah raw PPG doesn’t tell me how efficient a defense is. People thought the 19 Bucs defense was bad because of PPG. Again do you think the 17 Pats defense is better than the 21 Bucs, this is where this discussion is all coming down to. It should be noted that the Bucs played better defense in their last game than The pats despite playing a better offense.

 

3.)Tampa lost by 3, they did not get “thrashed” despite missing their 2nd and 3rd best players on offense that season(Godwin/Wirfs). You were wrong about the pats being the only team to give the Eagles a “scare” as the Falcons were driving to win the game on their final possession of the divisional round. 
 

4.)Tampa’s secondary was injured all season but were better statistically than the 17 Pats secondary despite playing in a more friendly passing environment. Go figure. 
 

5.)They we’re closer to repeating because they played in a garbage down AFC. If you put Tampa in the 17 AFC they run away with it. 17 pats don’t beat the Rams. 

1. No the Jags were really good that year. Sorry. You can't just yell "look at the quarterback" and think that covers everything. The 21 Bucs lost to Heinicke once and Hill twice. Neither of them are notably better than Bortles. If that's your argument it's pretty bad. In fact, they got shut out playing a team led by Hill and that Jags defense was signficantly better than the Saints defense. 

2. Raw PPG is the most predicative way to tell you how a defense will perform. It almost always is and is almost always why PPG translates closer to SB's. Yes it's symbiotic over good field position by special teams and the situation the offense helps put them in, but football is a symbiotic game. You can't pretend the defense is this isolated unit like DVOA likes to. That's not how the sport works. All the things that made the Pats defense top 5 would be at play. 

3. No they got thrashed. It was 27-3 and it took multiple screw ups from the offense to cause that. One was a bad snap that had nothing to do with the Bucs, one was a helmet not touching the ground a split second before that. Brady threw what should have been a game ending interception. They were getting killed, benefitted from a ton of mistakes and still lost. Oh and we already saw them get smacked around by the Rams earlier in the year when they had more talent. What happened that day, the domination, was not something out of left field. The only out of left field thing was the Rams nearly screwing up monumentally. 

4. If you honestly think the Bucs had a better secondary, maybe we shouldn't even talk because nobody on Earth who watched both teams would actually buy that. 

5. The 17 Pats easily beat the Rams lol. They were one drive away from beating the only team that would even challenge them for best team in the league lol. 

Sorry it's not even remotely close to me having watched both teams. The fact that you even think the secondaries were comparable is questionable as hell. And regardless, the Bucs practically limped into the playoffs. Their WR set was nerfed down to Gronk and Evans (Gronk is not the same guy anymore either), the offensive line was decimated, and the secondary was a weakness all year. There is no way anybody could make a compelling argument the 2021 Bucs that entered the playoffs were better than the 2017 Pats if you watched both teams. Your argument is strictly an "on paper" argument and even then you are making subjective arguments like completely discounting competition like the Jags who beat great teams all year.

[CP3MVP]

2 hours ago, lancerman said:

1. No the Jags were really good that year. Sorry. You can't just yell "look at the quarterback" and think that covers everything. The 21 Bucs lost to Heinicke once and Hill twice. Neither of them are notably better than Bortles. If that's your argument it's pretty bad. In fact, they got shut out playing a team led by Hill and that Jags defense was signficantly better than the Saints defense. 

2. Raw PPG is the most predicative way to tell you how a defense will perform. It almost always is and is almost always why PPG translates closer to SB's. Yes it's symbiotic over good field position by special teams and the situation the offense helps put them in, but football is a symbiotic game. You can't pretend the defense is this isolated unit like DVOA likes to. That's not how the sport works. All the things that made the Pats defense top 5 would be at play. 

3. No they got thrashed. It was 27-3 and it took multiple screw ups from the offense to cause that. One was a bad snap that had nothing to do with the Bucs, one was a helmet not touching the ground a split second before that. Brady threw what should have been a game ending interception. They were getting killed, benefitted from a ton of mistakes and still lost. Oh and we already saw them get smacked around by the Rams earlier in the year when they had more talent. What happened that day, the domination, was not something out of left field. The only out of left field thing was the Rams nearly screwing up monumentally. 

4. If you honestly think the Bucs had a better secondary, maybe we shouldn't even talk because nobody on Earth who watched both teams would actually buy that. 

5. The 17 Pats easily beat the Rams lol. They were one drive away from beating the only team that would even challenge them for best team in the league lol. 

Sorry it's not even remotely close to me having watched both teams. The fact that you even think the secondaries were comparable is questionable as hell. And regardless, the Bucs practically limped into the playoffs. Their WR set was nerfed down to Gronk and Evans (Gronk is not the same guy anymore either), the offensive line was decimated, and the secondary was a weakness all year. There is no way anybody could make a compelling argument the 2021 Bucs that entered the playoffs were better than the 2017 Pats if you watched both teams. Your argument is strictly an "on paper" argument and even then you are making subjective arguments like completely discounting competition like the Jags who beat great teams all year.

1.)They won 10 games with a bad QB. They’re defense was great statistically but could be had. See the 2017 steelers who roasted them. I’m taking the Bucs over the steelers. If we are going regular season Tampa put up 33 on the bills who had the best defense in the league last year. You have yet to even acknowledge the steelers because it destroys your jags argument lol. 

 

2.)I’m not pretending PPG doesn’t matter, it just doesn’t tell the whole story. It’s like in 2015 when I had to explain to people how the Broncos defense was on another level than the Panthers defense pre Super Bowl who thought differently becayse of “PPG”. Again, you don’t think the pats defense was better than Tampa now? 
 

3.) So does PPG matter or not lol? The score tells us 30-27. Now you’re telling me there is more to that? Oh interesting.  Tampa forced those turnovers so they count. Tampa played like trash for a half and the Rams played like trash for a half. 

4.)When healthy they were comparable, even without health Tampa had better stats against the pass like YPA, Passer rating and YPG. That’s interesting for someone who doesn’t think it’s close

 

5.)They didn’t easily beat the jags, how would they easily beat the Rams? That Rams defense would drop 40 on NE, they gave up 41 to a backup QB with no Cooper Kupp lol. 
 

6.)Yeah because the only thing the pats had on them is coaching and special teams. Your argument is well they got further ignoring they played in a worse conference. I’ll take at least 4 teams from the NFC over the 17 Jags. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by CP3MVP

[BayRaider]

1. Obviously, 2014 Seahawks

2. 2017 Patriots

 

3. 2020 Chiefs

4. 2021 Bucs

5. 2019 Patriots

 

6. 2016 Broncos

Edited February 8, 2022 by BayRaider