2022 NFL Draftstravaganza Day 1 Discussion

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

with ability to run with the ball in sweeps. If there’s anyone that is in that role in the draft it’s Austin

To be fair, this is another reason I’m not hanging onto Chase. Yes, he has done it…but he also isn’t tremendously good at it. DJ has half the career carries and the same yardage. It’s like the Switzer running back thing, yes they handed him the ball but it didn’t mean he was a capable running back. 

That’s my issue with hanging on Claypool. Everything he is meant to be good at…there’s other players who are better. 

4.4 speed? Diontae ran about a 4.6 but is the better deep threat because he knows how to stack guys. 

Chase is 6’4….and 5’11 James Washington looked like Denis Rodman at the catch point  in comparison. 

But the jets!!!….the thing Punt returner Johnson and now Calvin Austin will be (and already are) better at. I’m willing to bet Austin on an over from the slot works just as well too.

Chase is fine. Has a lot more physical potential than what he plays to. This is now just less about DJ and more about Claypool  I’m not sure how you could watch the two and select Chase to champion.

 

[43M]

4 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

I’m not sure how you could watch the two and select Chase to champion.

 

Im not sure how anyone could champion either.

Both are fine.    DJ is the better player, but I dont trust him.   He is a semi reliable 2 option.   I wouldn't necessarily mind keeping him, but for how much WRs are going for?   Id toss him up on that trade block real quick as see what bites I get.   I sure as hell aint throwing fat stacks at him.  He'd probably drop them, anyway.

[warfelg]

7 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

To be fair, this is another reason I’m not hanging onto Chase. Yes, he has done it…but he also isn’t tremendously good at it. DJ has half the career carries and the same yardage. It’s like the Switzer running back thing, yes they handed him the ball but it didn’t mean he was a capable running back. 

That’s my issue with hanging on Claypool. Everything he is meant to be good at…there’s other players who are better. 

4.4 speed? Diontae ran about a 4.6 but is the better deep threat because he knows how to stack guys. 

Chase is 6’4….and 5’11 James Washington looked like Denis Rodman at the catch point  in comparison. 

But the jets!!!….the thing Punt returner Johnson and now Calvin Austin will be (and already are) better at. I’m willing to bet Austin on an over from the slot works just as well too.

Chase is fine. Has a lot more physical potential than what he plays to. This is now just less about DJ and more about Claypool  I’m not sure how you could watch the two and select Chase to champion.

 

Now do Pickens and DJ like I’ve been saying. 

[warfelg]

3 hours ago, 43M said:

Im not sure how anyone could champion either.

Both are fine.    DJ is the better player, but I dont trust him.   He is a semi reliable 2 option.   I wouldn't necessarily mind keeping him, but for how much WRs are going for?   Id toss him up on that trade block real quick as see what bites I get.   I sure as hell aint throwing fat stacks at him.  He'd probably drop them, anyway.

I’m not even “championing” Claypool since (like usual) the point has been bastardized. 
 

But when you look at Pickens, DJ, and Claypool; role wise Pickens is better suited to do what DJ does in the offense than what Claypool does. So if you want to say Pickens is insurance for anyone or a replacement, it’s more likely DJ. 
 

But of course that’s getting ignored and twisted to a Claypool vs DJ thing especially since knickers got in a twist when I told people DJ is overrated. 

[Dcash4]

6 hours ago, 43M said:

Im not sure how anyone could champion either.

That's fine. I mentioned earlier, personally I would extend DJ but my second option would be letting them both leave via trade or FA. 

6 hours ago, 43M said:

I wouldn't necessarily mind keeping him, but for how much WRs are going for? I sure as hell aint throwing fat stacks at him.  He'd probably drop them, anyway.

Is money the only reason? That's probably the part I care the least about. It's going rate. Also the way we structure deals you are likely looking at 2 additional years max. We are top 10 in cap space and the cap is going up with new TV money. 

I am taking advantage of Kenny's rookie deal window. Throwing market rate at our best receiver and the one most unique to the others isn't a bad move to max that Qb value. You talk about holes a lot -- why create one if the only thing it takes is cash? Something we will have plenty of flexibility with moving forward. 

If they would have drafted Malik, I would have been trying to ship DJ right that minute...but with Kenny, you need to maximize your time with him at that rate. DJ fits that, or at least buys more runway before concentrating on the position again. 

5 of 5 starting skill position players will be on rookie deals this year. We can live with making that 4 of 5 next year and likely the following year too. 

3 hours ago, warfelg said:

Now do Pickens and DJ like I’ve been saying. 

I already have. I have said multiple times that Pickens PROJECTS as a lead X (and a better on that Johnson)....but the thing you will find in every scouting report in terms of the unknown is the thing DJ is ALREADY good at and the one most vital to top receivers in today's league. 

Key words: Projects and already. 

So, to recap: While Pickens COULD be better than DJ at the X, he is likely ALREADY better than Claypool at the Z. So why would you gamble on the growth at the hardest thing to translate in the league from college to pros and the thing that is the biggest question mark other than health with the rookie? Hedge that bet. Slow play the development of the extreme talent at a position that takes less detail and grow him into the lead spot over 2-3 years. 

And in terms of flexibility, something Canada wants, DJ can play all three slots. Claypool is a Z and his strengths in the slot basically stem from being a matchup problem. I mark Pickens as an X/Z guy, but I am not sure what difference he would bring to the slot vs Claypool. 

Hopefully Pickens comes in, blows up, takes over that lead role -- that's a GOOD thing. We would have incredible flexibility moving forward with DJ, Pickens, and (hopefully) Austin. We need to see his development on the field in terms of running routes in the pros and releasing off the line to understand if he is capable of taking over the X. As we sit right now, I would in no way put my eggs in the basket of him being DJ's replacement rather than Claypools. He is apples to apples what Claypool is right now. He is apples to oranges to what DJ is at this moment. 

[warfelg]

So to recap:

DJ is an X and Z. About to be a FA. 
Pickens is an X and Z. Has the potential to be a #1. 
 

So therefore it’s fair to assume that Pickens is insurance for DJ. If Pickens does great - awesome DJ can walk, someone else can pay him $20+ a year, we get a 3rd. If Pickens falls flat, we resign DJ and roll with him. 
 

Cool. 

[Dcash4]

P - R - O - F - I - L - E - S 

P - R - O - J - E - C - T - S 

[warfelg]

Ok? You honestly keep making my argument. Pickens is mainly an X who can play Z. Johnson is mainly an X who can play Z. 
 

Austin is a Z who can play X. Claypool is a Z who can play X. 
 

I expect to see a ton of DJ and Pickens at the X and Y spots and Claypool/Austin sharing Z duties dependent on play. 

[Dcash4]

14 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Pickens is PROJECTED an X who can immediately play Z. Johnson is mainly an X who can play Z. 

Fify

14 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Claypool is a Z who can play X. 

No. He can't. 

14 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I expect to see a ton of DJ and Pickens at the X and Y spots and Claypool/Austin sharing Z duties dependent on play. 

So you have Chase Claypool sharing duties while we see a ton of DJ and Pickens?

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Dcash4

[warfelg]

49 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

So you have Chase Claypool sharing duties while we see a ton of DJ and Pickens?

 

Yet somehow that means potential Claypool replacement from Pickens. 
 

Therefore you agree with my original statement. Pickens is more potentially a DJ replacement than Claypool. Thanks. 
 

Feel free to go back to my first post where I said Pickens is more a threat to DJ and Austin is more a threat to Claypool. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by warfelg

[Dcash4]

Whose snaps are Pickens' snaps effecting, @warfelg? If you are replacing someone -- you are replacing their snaps. 

So if DJ's snaps stay the same and Claypool's go down......Pickens is a replacement to ____________________'s snaps? 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Dcash4

[43M]

3 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Is money the only reason? That's probably the part I care the least about. It's going rate. Also the way we structure deals you are likely looking at 2 additional years max. We are top 10 in cap space and the cap is going up with new TV money. 

I am taking advantage of Kenny's rookie deal window. Throwing market rate at our best receiver and the one most unique to the others isn't a bad move to max that Qb value.

Just because he is our "best WR" doesnt mean much or that he is worth paying big money to.   

If you'd pay him, so be it.   Im not against it for the right money, but "going rate" doesnt mean you should overpay lesser players.   There is a reason teams are drafting WR like crazy and trading ones up for new contracts away.   

Ill let incompetent franchises like Jacksonville overpay WRs.

3 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

You talk about holes a lot -- why create one if the only thing it takes is cash?

Because Id rather fill other areas than investing tons of money into a player I cant depend on.

3 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

I already have. I have said multiple times that Pickens PROJECTS as a lead X (and a better on that Johnson)....but the thing you will find in every scouting report in terms of the unknown is the thing DJ is ALREADY good at and the one most vital to top receivers in today's league. 

The bottom line is I just don't view DJ as highly as you do, and that's primarily why Im opposed to paying him big money...not because I have utmost faith in Pickens.

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Whose snaps are Pickens' snaps effecting, @warfelg? If you are replacing someone -- you are replacing their snaps. 

So if DJ's snaps stay the same and Claypool's go down......Pickens is a replacement to ____________________'s snaps? 

This is a bit of logical fallacy though. Pickens may “replace” Claypools snaps “this year”. Claypools snaps were high last year due to the Juju injury. So look at 2019, and Pickens would replace Jujus snaps not Claypools. Claypool goes more into the role he’s best suited for. So he’s not replacing Claypool. He’s filling something that was a need. 
 

Where he’s potentially DJs replacement (not Claypools) is if we decide (as you expressed dismay over) not to extend DJ and we hit the offseason. Pickens would slide into (and based on what I think be better) what DJ was as the top target (aka WR1). Claypool would be in effect by that. 

[Dcash4]

And we understand that you can do two things right? Retain Dj ANNND have Pickens become your stud? Those two do not have to live separately.

So the better receiver, with better position flexibility, and the one thing no one else on the team does at the NFL level -- nah, let's go with that guy that everyone does things better than. 

As I have mentioned -- hedge your bets. Pickens is 21 and in the last two seasons of college played with an injury and nearly missed an entire one with an ACL tear. I really like Pickens. I really like his potential to become that one. I do not think it's likely with what has gone on the last two years that it happens by year 2. 

You will thrive having two guys who run routes and move around the field. You will need to survive left with 2 vertical threats who can only work rails. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Dcash4

[warfelg]

Sure you can do that. That’s being said, the bet being hedged is “will DJ make more than we are comfortable paying?”