Texans off-season thread

[ET80]

Just now, amazingandre said:

Signing Fulton and Solder would be HUGE

I don't know much about Fulton, other than he comes from KC. Our track record with KC OL is...well... Jordan Black and Jeff Allen. (Tony Bergstrom too, right?)

That alone makes me cringe. 

[ET80]

Thoughts? A bit inconsistent, but a good player overall, IMO.

[ET80]

My #1 CB on the market. I think we're about to find Jonathan Joseph v 2.0 if we land Butler.

[Texansfan713]

35 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

My #1 CB on the market. I think we're about to find Jonathan Joseph v 2.0 if we land Butler.

1B- 2 for me.  I want Trumaine Johnson more. 

[Texansfan713]

1 hour ago, amazingandre said:

Signing Fulton and Solder would be HUGE

To clarify.  I doubt we bringing in Fulton to start at C.  He is a much better guard. Ranked 5th out of guards in pass protection by PFF.  Martin should stay at C. Only person on the OL with a guaranteed job this season.

[Pastor Dillon]

32 minutes ago, Texansfan713 said:

To clarify.  I doubt we bringing in Fulton to start at C.  He is a much better guard. Ranked 5th out of guards in pass protection by PFF.  Martin should stay at C. Only person on the OL with a guaranteed job this season.

Martin might not be healthy to start the season

but I agree, Martin or Mancz can play center and if we sign Fulton it should be to start at LG

Solder/Fulton/Martin/Allen/Clark would be good enough to keep Watson healthy 

[Pastor Dillon]

we could let everyone of our FAs walk and not be any worse off. I only want to bring back JJoe and Clark

[Apollo Stallion]

3 hours ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I don't know much about Fulton, other than he comes from KC. Our track record with KC OL is...well... Jordan Black and Jeff Allen. (Tony Bergstrom too, right?)

That alone makes me cringe. 

Nah, Bergstrom was a Raider, but thanks for the reminder of one of my most hated early Rick Smith Smith signings in Jordan Black who like Bergstom, never saw the field despite being one of our higher paid o-lineman.  Black was a similar situation in KC as Allen as a guy who wasn't good enough to keep a starting gig, but wasn't terrible as an injury replacement so we thought we could get by with him at LT or RG.  Funny, just like kidding ourselves that Charles Spencer (aka Derek Newton) would ever be able to play again, instead of addressing tackle with an actual competent starter we stuck good guy/bad player Ephraim Salaam out there protecting Matt Schaub's blindside for a year and a half, bad signing Mike Flanagan at C, and roster filler Fred Weary at RG with predictable results.  In 08, 2 of Rick Smith's best moves ever (Asst. Head Coach, Alex Gibbs, really), Duane Brown was brought in as developmental LT and he traded for Chris Myers to captain the OL at C.  Of course, in typical Rick fashion he ignored depth used the injury excuse and threw away 2009 with Kasey Studdard, Chris White, and 09 version of XSF, Antoine Caldwell.

I don't object to a Fulton signing as long as it's simply medium priced depth and not as a starter.  If we envision him as a starter and fail to address LG/RG long-term we are simply continuing the Rick Smith tradition of not learning from our mistakes as this is clearly Black/Allen all over again as a KC injury replacement guy who can't hold a starting gig. 

Solder would be a great addition as long as everyone understands that he is merely a competent starter, not some superstar.  Yes, competent starter is a massive improvement over Giacomini/Clark/Lamm and we have the cap space to overpay for competency for a few years until Watson gets his massive 2nd deal.  Personally, I like the idea of giving Davenport a year to develop on the right side while Solder adds stability to the left, then if all goes well, swapping them in 2019 as Solder is limited athletically and only an average pass protector.  To be clear, this doesn't mean I think Davenport is a lock to even hold down the RT spot this year better yet LT, as he remains a project who was every bit as clueless as XSF as a rookie with similar strength and technique red flags (see Jabaal Sheard destroying him for a sack-fumble vs. Indy, Cam Heyward owning him vs. Pitt). We need to add 3 tackles and 3 guards this offseason and personally I'd prefer 4 so we have the flexibility to cut Allen loose and redshirt Davenport another half-season. I'm ok counting on Nick Martin at C or RG, but his ankles require a plan 1b at those positions as well (Mancz at minimum). 

[Apollo Stallion]

4 hours ago, EliteTexan80 said:

My #1 CB on the market. I think we're about to find Jonathan Joseph v 2.0 if we land Butler.

If by Joseph 2.0 you mean the 33 year old version that has likely lost a step from his 4.31 prime and maybe a little off the 37 inch vert I might agree.  Butler is 5' 9", ran a 4.62 with a 33 inch vert and that's assuming Butler hasn't lost anything as a 28 year old.  Butler had to be protected in a soft zone for the brief time he was a #1, while Jospeh has spent his career on an island.  FWIW - Joseph also is one of the smartest CBs in the NFL history (46/50 on Wonderlic), while Butler is a PE Major from U of West Alabama. For me it's going to be a contest between Butler and Dion Lewis to see who gets more overpaid relative to their talent based upon being a spare part w/a Super Bowl moment for the NE machine.

[ET80]

6 minutes ago, Apollo Stallion said:

If by Joseph 2.0 you mean...

I mean that everyone thought Nnamdi was the better option over Joseph, and the Texans went a different direction and found the vastly superior player in the process.

I'm putting a ton of stock in players' thoughts, and there are WRs who feel as if Butler is the toughest man cover guy they've faced.

[Marco79]

6 hours ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I don't know much about Fulton, other than he comes from KC. Our track record with KC OL is...well... Jordan Black and Jeff Allen. (Tony Bergstrom too, right?)

That alone makes me cringe. 

Maybe he'll be more like Wade Smith than Jeff Allen. 

[ET80]

1 hour ago, Marco79 said:

Maybe he'll be more like Wade Smith than Jeff Allen. 

Forgot about Wade. Good call.

[ET80]

3 hours ago, Apollo Stallion said:

Solder would be a great addition as long as everyone understands that he is merely a competent starter, not some superstar. 

I don't think anyone is expecting a superstar in Solder. He never was a star in New England (then again, what OL is when TB12 is taking snaps) but a consistent performance in pass protection will be worth overpaying now that we have a QB worth protecting. 

I honestly have 2019 as when/where we find our true blindside protector. The Texans will have three picks in the top 64 and next years' T class looks like it has some very promising T prospects (Jonah Williams, Trey Adams, Greg Little, Michael Deiter, Mitch Hyatt). Ideally, one of these blue chip guys slide in to LT, Solder moves to RT and Davenport develops into a high end swing T. 

Other needs will arise between now and then (better stated, we'll still need a S) but bringing in a young LT at any point in Deshaun Watson's career is never a bad idea, no matter who you have penciled in at LT. 

[Apollo Stallion]

4 hours ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I mean that everyone thought Nnamdi was the better option over Joseph, and the Texans went a different direction and found the vastly superior player in the process.

I'm putting a ton of stock in players' thoughts, and there are WRs who feel as if Butler is the toughest man cover guy they've faced.

Call me a cynic, but this trend of player recruitment via twitter smacks of agents trying to drive up market value for clients or in the case of Butler, trying to lure a player in line for a big payday to their agency.  When you say "players thoughts" I'm assuming you are referring to Hopkins and E. Sanders who not only share an agent (CAA who also reps JJ Watt), but it's rumored several agencies have been trying to lure Butler away from his long-time agent who has exactly one NFL client and was unable to secure a trade for him after the Pats give Gilmore $65 million for his job.  Sanders himself bashed Butler the year before saying "his 2 year old could play cover 2 in the Pats system" and Sanders has destroyed Butler throughout his career because NE focuses on D. Thomas as the bigger threat.  I'm not sure how it all fits together, but Aqib Talib is one of CAA's biggest clients and they had a very limited set of options to keep his contract from getting dumped since he basically said he'd only play for Belichick or Phillips after he scuttled a done deal trade to the 49ers (Garcon also was recruiting Butler). As for Hopkins, you know who DOESN'T Cover Hopkins when we play them - Malcolm Butler.  The Pats entire system is built around stopping the biggest threat and they used Logan Ryan in 2016 and Gilmore last year.

My tin foil conspiracy hat went off further when Hopkins next "recruit" was - Jimmy Graham, another top CAA client.  The first clue should have been the professional photoshop job that probably came straight from the agencies powerpoint.  I'm not saying this is all about sleazy agent games, but player Twitter accounts are run by social media branding experts at the agency and posts like "the top 5 hardest CBs" are glorified Buzzfeed listacles feeding corporate strategies, not some unfiltered access to their deepest thoughts.  Reality is that coaches don't even spend enough time watching opposing players to be trusted without significant affirmation from the front office pro personnel folks, so even if a WRr actually thinks CB "a" is the best they faced, that doesn't mean he's a fit for his own defense or that our need is to stop players like Hopkins (I'd argue TY Hilton/Brandon Cooks speed types are a far bigger problem than high target possession types). 

[Apollo Stallion]

Ok - at this point I'm definitely overstating my objection to Butler, so don't take offense, ET.  Honestly, if we were bringing him in for a $10 million "prove it" deal I could live with it, because I think he could be a solid addition to our secondary, but I suspect that tops out at better version of Jackson/Johnson, but with significant bust potential as well.  My fear is that Butler/Jackson/Johnson is actually a downgrade because it means man coverage needs to be completely stripped from the playbook, especially since McCourty/Chung aren't back there if/when they get beat and make no mistake Butler makes us slower and smaller.  What this team is missing is EXACTLY what the Pats were when they went out and paid Gilmore instead of Butler - a cover corner to shut down the biggest threat.  Butler is a solid zone corner who would have been a better fit than Asomugha in that Eagles scheme that wasted Nmandi's man to man skill, but it feels we're trying to find Joseph 2.0/Bouye 2.0, but we're paying for Eagles era Asante Samuel (although he got more ints in a season than Butler has in his whole career). Hell, I'm not sure Butler is even DRC (available) who was nickel on that fantasy good / reality terrible Eagles secondary.