State of the Steelers

[Ward4HOF]

13 minutes ago, warfelg said:

There’s rumor out there that ATL’s interest level is going to depend on talks to move up in the draft and what happens with Ridley.  With Chicago looking to move Fields before FA, ATL won’t know if they have that 2nd from the Ridley trade so it could take them out of it.  Given how high the Raiders 2nd is (the only other team interested) and their own roster construction issue, they might not be willing to invest a high pick in Fields. -- Interesting...hopefully, we don't bid against 'ourselves' to secure Fields, when we may not have to...

That’s why a few pages ago I suggested a trade structured like Ridley’s so both teams feel like they got a win.

Honestly, I'd rather we trade 1.20 + 2.51 + 4.119 + 2025 1st + 2025 3rd or add a player, if it helps, to move all the way to number 2, to grab Daniels.  He's almost Fields-like in having one amazing NCAA season (and yes, i know Daniels had more than one season, but I mean a single season's impact on draft stock), catapulting him to a top 5 draft projection.

I think Daniels has higher upside passing than Fields, plus we get him for 5 years, plus it's cheaper than Fields, in the shirt run, etc., etc.

Edited February 29 by Ward4HOF

[warfelg]

5 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

Honestly, I'd rather we trade 1.20 + 2.51 + 4.119 + 2025 1st + 2025 3rd or add a player, if it helps, to move all the way to number 2, to grab Daniels.  He's almost Fields-like in having one amazing NCAA season (and yes, i know Daniels had more than one season, but I mean a single season's impact on draft stock), catapulting him to a top 5 draft projection.

I think Daniels has higher upside passing than Fields, plus we get him for 5 years, plus it's cheaper than Fields, in the shirt run, etc., etc.

Add in another 1st and the player to what you proposed there.

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, AFF said:

3)The team has to make a choice…either go trade the farm with multiple 1sts 2s or 3s and go get their guy and still not be anything special this year….or……go with Pickett/vet like Tannehill and your still punting the season(while still getting OL and other pieces for the team) but then you still have to trade the farm for a guy in 2025 cause the team has too much talent to tank.

By the time, if the new QB is legit a franchise guy, your having to pay Pickens/JPJ and Watt is only under contract for 24-25 and Minkah will be coming up for a new deal.

I think Fields is the best option save for going after Cousins if you want the Steelers to try to win now(Cousins just now) and maybe get their guy for the future.

This is the big part to me that I don't understand from the pushback of the value of the Fields trade. Again, if you don't like Fields, just say that, put a period at the end and it's all good. We are done. 

Fields, 2 years $14M/per, for Pick 51. I get that might sound expensive IF YOU DON'T LIKE FIELDS, but the reality of the value is that it likely lands in the middle of what it WILL cost us to get a QB with his skillset/pedigree. 

Want to wait on next years FA class? Okay, let's hope for the best and the top guys land. Prescott and Goff are going to cost you $50M and $40M per year. So $14M/year is too high? BTW, we have over $140M in projected cap space in 2025...

Want to go by the draft? As a team likely to draft between 15-25, you are likely sending a 2025 1 & 2 + 2026 1 at minimum to move up for the type of profile Fields currently provides. So leverage that against the cost of pick 51. 

And now we are getting into "opportunity and time cost". What's the opportunity cost of another year with a guy like Kenny? What's the time cost of allowing TJ Watt to be a year old, Cam closer to retirement, and guys closer to big money pay days or 3rd contracts and doing so without a playoff win? What's the time a new rookie QB would need to ramp up?

There is NO RIGHT ANSWER to this. But I hear people slamming the process of the Fields trade based on value, but not presenting any alternative process other that I guess hoping for the best? That's what I want to know then. If you don't like this process, what's the process moving forward to close the gap on QB talent? 

Or is it just to continually spin tires and hope and pray?

 

[Ward4HOF]

59 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Add in another 1st and the player to what you proposed there.

I'm ok with that.  I think he's likely to have a more successful career than any of the guys coming out in 2025...unless one is a big Sanders proponent...

[SteelersFan2333]

I’m in the camp of give Kenny another year and build a better all around team. I’m an OSU guy and do believe Fields is better than he’s been, but I value what we would have to invest in him picks wise vs where he could take us. If Kenny falters again in what has to be a better system, move on next year and grab a guy like Ewers to reset the pay scale. I don’t have any doubt we would be better with Fields, but I don’t think he gets us another ring. 

[warfelg]

8 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

I'm ok with that.  I think he's likely to have a more successful career than any of the guys coming out in 2025...unless one is a big Sanders proponent...

So 20, 51, 2025 1st, 2025 3rd, 2026 1st, 2026 4th, and maybe like Highsmith or DJ? Hell no with all the other needs I’m not giving that up. Because that team you are suggesting to trade up with us desperate for a QB and a face of the franchise. 

[MOSteelers56]

I honestly don't think we're as bad of a team as people think. We're not as talent loaded as we were in 05, but we're not a team full of scrubs. I think a few additions and subtractions and we're just as good as anyone. Unfortunately, the biggest issues we have are at extremely important spots(QB and until this year OC). I don't think we're great, I just think the other NFL teams aren't that good either. Look at the Chiefs. They had a pretty terrible offense except for Patty. Their defense was good, but I don't think it was head and shoulders better than ours. The influx of talent our new regime gave us last year gives me hope that we aren't far away. If we have another off-season on par with last year(if that includes a QB), we're right there. I mean, we won double digit games with this supposedly untalented team. 

[Ward4HOF]

26 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

This is the big part to me that I don't understand from the pushback of the value of the Fields trade. Again, if you don't like Fields, just say that, put a period at the end and it's all good. We are done. 

Fields, 2 years $14M/per, for Pick 51. I get that might sound expensive IF YOU DON'T LIKE FIELDS, but the reality of the value is that it likely lands in the middle of what it WILL cost us to get a QB with his skillset/pedigree. 

Want to wait on next years FA class? Okay, let's hope for the best and the top guys land. Prescott and Goff are going to cost you $50M and $40M per year. So $14M/year is too high? BTW, we have over $140M in projected cap space in 2025...

Want to go by the draft? As a team likely to draft between 15-25, you are likely sending a 2025 1 & 2 + 2026 1 at minimum to move up for the type of profile Fields currently provides. So leverage that against the cost of pick 51. 

And now we are getting into "opportunity and time cost". What's the opportunity cost of another year with a guy like Kenny? What's the time cost of allowing TJ Watt to be a year old, Cam closer to retirement, and guys closer to big money pay days or 3rd contracts and doing so without a playoff win? What's the time a new rookie QB would need to ramp up?

There is NO RIGHT ANSWER to this. But I hear people slamming the process of the Fields trade based on value, but not presenting any alternative process other that I guess hoping for the best? That's what I want to know then. If you don't like this process, what's the process moving forward to close the gap on QB talent? 

Or is it just to continually spin tires and hope and pray?

 

Well, as I posted above, I'd trade quite a bit to go get Daniels, as I think he's a better passing 'Fields'.

But otherwise, yes, I'd give Kenny a chance, especially if we retain Mason, to have a somewhat decent back-up.

Additionally, I think value does play a part, because I don't think Fields is a $14M QB.  I understand it's cheaper than other starting QBs, but unless he progresses a lot, I wouldn't value him much more than a #2 QB at under $10M.

And as I also mentioned, I'd love to be wrong, if he comes here.  I won't be grumpy, or anything, but I will not expect any better result than what we've already got with Kenny in a new system.

[Ward4HOF]

8 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I honestly don't think we're as bad of a team as people think. We're not as talent loaded as we were in 05, but we're not a team full of scrubs. I think a few additions and subtractions and we're just as good as anyone. Unfortunately, the biggest issues we have are at extremely important spots(QB and until this year OC). I don't think we're great, I just think the other NFL teams aren't that good either. Look at the Chiefs. They had a pretty terrible offense except for Patty. Their defense was good, but I don't think it was head and shoulders better than ours. The influx of talent our new regime gave us last year gives me hope that we aren't far away. If we have another off-season on par with last year(if that includes a QB), we're right there. I mean, we won double digit games with this supposedly untalented team. 

I agree.  We were decimated at ILB last year, so if we can get back a healthy Holcomb & Roberts with Robinson for depth, we are good there.  We are deep at OLB with Herbig, and now Moon.  Heyward's back, and now with Benton, and honestly, if we can bring back Adams and Watts (both are underrated, IMO), we are good there for another year.

A team can do a lot worse than JPJ + Wallace, with Pierre, Sullivan, and potential with Trice isn't shabby.  Of course Fitz, with either Neal, or Thompson's not bad, either.  We are desperate at OL, but depth in this draft, plus a FA or two, can help.  We are set at TE, and WR, and RB. just need to get that OL squared away.

We are certainly good enough, overall, assuming we bring back our key FAs...

...but just need the right QB...hence all this discussion, haha...

[Dcash4]

50 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I just think the other NFL teams aren't that good either

QB play swings the talent pool pretty wildly. Run back the Bills playoff game where Josh Allen is a Steeler and Mason Rudolph is a Bill....who wins?

That's why I am so focused on us improving QB. When you play that game you come up with a lot of match ups where you would favor the Steelers with just a QB swap. 

[MOSteelers56]

27 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

I agree.  We were decimated at ILB last year, so if we can get back a healthy Holcomb & Roberts with Robinson for depth, we are good there.  We are deep at OLB with Herbig, and now Moon.  Heyward's back, and now with Benton, and honestly, if we can bring back Adams and Watts (both are underrated, IMO), we are good there for another year.

A team can do a lot worse than JPJ + Wallace, with Pierre, Sullivan, and potential with Trice isn't shabby.  Of course Fitz, with either Neal, or Thompson's not bad, either.  We are desperate at OL, but depth in this draft, plus a FA or two, can help.  We are set at TE, and WR, and RB. just need to get that OL squared away.

We are certainly good enough, overall, assuming we bring back our key FAs...

...but just need the right QB...hence all this discussion, haha...

I don't love our defense right now. I don't feel comfortable with our ILB situation. Holcomb, while nice, is injury prone. Roberts isn't a complete ILB. We need to add here. I also don't think our secondary is great. We need to add talent at S and CB. I don't want Wallace starting. I also want to add talent to the DL. I don't like Adams or Watts as much as you. Adams is fine, but I think Watts was a waste of a roster spot. I think we can add talent to all these spots pretty easily with the draft and FA. Look at how many people we brought in last year that played integral roles. 

[MOSteelers56]

9 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

QB play swings the talent pool pretty wildly. Run back the Bills playoff game where Josh Allen is a Steeler and Mason Rudolph is a Bill....who wins?

That's why I am so focused on us improving QB. When you play that game you come up with a lot of match ups where you would favor the Steelers with just a QB swap. 

I agree with this. We look average because we have a bad QB and an atrocious offensive system. Our offensive weapons look like the Moss/Welker Pats compared to what the Chiefs had last year. Their best WR was rookie Rashee Rice. Obviously they have Kelce, but he's the only weapon that is head and shoulders better than anything we have. Diontae/Pickens combo is 20x better than their top 2 WRs. Najee/Warren combo is 10x better than their RB room. Their line was fine but not elite, better than ours by a little, but probably not as much as it seems. 

[Dcash4]

51 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

Well, as I posted above, I'd trade quite a bit to go get Daniels, as I think he's a better passing 'Fields'.

I can definitely appreciate that. I would also move up for a QB if we have the opportunity, but only if they fall outside of the top 5. I think the cost is too hefty once you get into the top 3 range. 

The 49ers traded 3 firsts and a third to move from 12 to 3.  The Eagles went from 8 to 2 and gave up 2 first, a second, a third, and a 4th swap. 

I don't know what the math would be if moving from 20 to 2 or 3, but man it's going to be costly. Just judging by a draft chart and taking a stab at it, 2024 1 + 2, 2025 1 + 2, 2026 1...and likely another pick in there somewhere. 

1 hour ago, Ward4HOF said:

But otherwise, yes, I'd give Kenny a chance, especially if we retain Mason, to have a somewhat decent back-up.

I don't mind running back with kenny/Mason, but it has to be because you exhausted all options and came up flat. If they can't get/don't like Fields, if they can't move up for a top 3 guy, if they can't/don't want Kirk... Don't make a move for Bo Nix for the sake of getting another QB. Find the guy you WANT and go get them. 

Otherwise run it back, build the team....but you NEED to have a plan for the following year. And the desperation that's going to set it if Kenny/Mason doesn't work is where I get scared. 

 

[warfelg]

5 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I don't love our defense right now. I don't feel comfortable with our ILB situation. Holcomb, while nice, is injury prone. Roberts isn't a complete ILB. We need to add here. I also don't think our secondary is great. We need to add talent at S and CB. I don't want Wallace starting. I also want to add talent to the DL. I don't like Adams or Watts as much as you. Adams is fine, but I think Watts was a waste of a roster spot. I think we can add talent to all these spots pretty easily with the draft and FA. Look at how many people we brought in last year that played integral roles. 

And that alone is likely 2-3 draft picks and $30-40MM in cap space to lock down.

We go over to the offense and I don't feel good about the future of WR, we need a RT and C, TE1 is coming up on a contract in 2025, and RB1 and RB2 are both up for contracts that year as well.  Depending how CAIII advances we may be in the market for WR3, and RG is a FA in 2025 as well.

Even if 50% of that works or stays, thats still about $60-75MM in cap space and 3-4 picks you need to find that.

Now on this you think of how many premium picks (first 2 rounds) that would take out of that 5-7, and you are talking 3-4 of those in a 2 year span are needed to help with all of that.  If you trade all but 1 away for a QB, you are relying more heavily on FA, so instead of $90-115MM you might be thinking more $120-140MM to bring that all in.

I would love a trade for Daniels, but a trade for Fields on the chance he could be 80% of that....is far more beneficial for the long term outlook of the franchise.

[Dcash4]

1 minute ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I agree with this. We look average because we have a bad QB and an atrocious offensive system. Our offensive weapons look like the Moss/Welker Pats compared to what the Chiefs had last year. Their best WR was rookie Rashee Rice. Obviously they have Kelce, but he's the only weapon that is head and shoulders better than anything we have. Diontae/Pickens combo is 20x better than their top 2 WRs. Najee/Warren combo is 10x better than their RB room. Their line was fine but not elite, better than ours by a little, but probably not as much as it seems. 

Definitely! 

Top tier QBs allow you to put "perfect" on the other side of the word "but". 

We are: Kenny didn't make the play, but it wasn't perfect. 

They are: It wasn't perfect, but Allen/Mahomes/whoever made the play. 

A play explaining that is the shot to Austin against the Titans. Dude at Kenny's feet and he doesn't have the arm to get it there because it wasn't perfectly clean. That's not a problem for the freaks. Just put the points on the board when you get a guy that open. 

We have been talking about offensive line play being a crux for a long time. Did you see the Chief's tackles get busted all year long and Mahomes just ....move out of the way and throw a 20 yard dart, usually to a white dude named Justin Watson?

These guys live in a completely different world than us right now, and all I wanna do is try to rent some space in their neighborhood.