Lions trade TE T.J. Hockenson to Vikings for 2nd, swap of picks

[Soko]

5 minutes ago, Scoundrel said:

These aren’t the same draft classes... comparing players and where they were picked in different draft classes is pointless.

Must’ve not read the thread

[Scoundrel]

25 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Must’ve not read the thread

I did. Players in different draft classes get drafted earlier than others based on many things like quality of depth in a class, a particular need that year and so on. Again comparing where they are drafted when they aren’t in the same draft class is pointless. 

[Soko]

5 minutes ago, Scoundrel said:

I did. 

Then you must’ve missed the part where I said bringing up draft status didn’t make sense, purely in response to another guy bring up draft status from two guys in different classes (Hill and Pierce).

[Scoundrel]

11 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Then you must’ve missed the part where I said bringing up draft status didn’t make sense, purely in response to another guy bring up draft status from two guys in different classes (Hill and Pierce).

Could you maybe not realize I was quoting your evidence as support for your argument?

[Soko]

3 minutes ago, Scoundrel said:

Could you maybe not realize I was quoting your evidence as support for your argument?

No, because there’s no quote tree anymore, lol (you can do it but I don’t know how). Direction gets lost now and again. 

Didn’t even bring up the obvious DV stuff that also tanked Hill’s positioning that year, either. Really just a silly thing altogether.

[NudeTayne]

On 12/28/2022 at 10:41 AM, battle2heaven said:

Maybe my sentence structure wasn't clear.

 

I agree with you. I was saying Schultz is the safety net, possession guy, and comparing him to Hockenson doesn't make too much sense. 

[nagahide13]

On 12/29/2022 at 10:09 AM, Forge said:

I mean, Hill did beat a pregnant woman too, so maybe you lack some context or data here? 

I agree with some of what you said, but this statement is a little absurd when you account for the relatively huge amount of info that is simply being disregarded (off field issues, transfer, limited play, position change) so I had to step in on this one. 

The point wasn't that Hill fell in the draft. The point was that his RAS is high, he was drafted late and he is a good player. It had nothing to do with "draft stock" or why he fell. His score is high and he's good despite where he was drafted, which supports RAS.

I also didn't say that RAS= good player. Again, its an attempt to measure a player's athleticism which CAN give you an idea of potential. That's it.

Some people here are being wildly disingenuous and attempting to constantly straw-man. "SO YOU'RE SAYING CARSON WENTZ" No. I am not.

Edited December 31, 2022 by nagahide13

[nagahide13]

My favorite part about this is all the 20/20 pros that knew this guy

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/tyreek-hill/32004849-4c62-8694-8490-45499711dee4

was this guy

https://www.nfl.com/players/tyreek-hill/

I applaud you all and wish you well in your lucrative futures.

[Forge]

2 hours ago, nagahide13 said:

The point wasn't that Hill fell in the draft. The point was that his RAS is high, he was drafted late and he is a good player. It had nothing to do with "draft stock" or why he fell. His score is high and he's good despite where he was drafted, which supports RAS.

I also didn't say that RAS= good player. Again, its an attempt to measure a player's athleticism which CAN give you an idea of potential. That's it.

Some people here are being wildly disingenuous and attempting to constantly straw-man. "SO YOU'RE SAYING CARSON WENTZ" No. I am not.

I didn't say that you said RAS = good player.  In fact, I wasn't really commenting on your stance regarding RAS at all. 

I also didn't strawman anything. I commented  on a very specific statement that you made that alluded to the idea that Pierce was drafted higher because of "measurements and expectations". The out you have there is the "expectations" because the off field stuff is built into that, but it felt like the spirit of your post was insinuating that Pierce was expected to be better because his measurements were better.  I disagree with that, particularly with Hill specifically. Hill had a whole host of issues in his draft year that were far beyond his athletic traits. I don't think Pierce was taken so much higher because he had a slightly higher RAS score.  Based on your reaction, my guess is that this is not in fact what you meant, however that is the way it kind of reads. 

We have no idea where Hill would have been without all of the other factors in play. 

[Forge]

21 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

My favorite part about this is all the 20/20 pros that knew this guy

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/tyreek-hill/32004849-4c62-8694-8490-45499711dee4

was this guy

https://www.nfl.com/players/tyreek-hill/

I applaud you all and wish you well in your lucrative futures.

Well, I know that I didn't say that...not sure if someone else did or not (also, that's a blank scouting report?) 

[nagahide13]

5 hours ago, Forge said:

The out you have there is the "expectations" because the off field stuff is built into that, but it felt like the spirit of your post was insinuating that Pierce was expected to be better because his measurements were better.  I disagree with that, particularly with Hill specifically. Hill had a whole host of issues in his draft year that were far beyond his athletic traits. I don't think Pierce was taken so much higher because he had a slightly higher RAS score. 

The original argument was that RAS was useless because it had players like Peirce and Hill graded with similar athletic scores. When asked if Pierce and Hill were comparably athletic out of the combine, I said yes. Then all hell broke loose. Everything else has been about that. I brought up draft position because the point of using RAS is to identify incredibly athletic people that might not be graded particularly high as football players.

Edited December 31, 2022 by nagahide13

[nagahide13]

5 hours ago, Forge said:

Well, I know that I didn't say that...not sure if someone else did or not (also, that's a blank scouting report?) 

The report isn't just blank... Hill wasn't even going to be drafted.  He didn't get a scouting report. It's not as though he was a first round pick that dropped due to DV either. He just wasn't really a great prospect after he went to Alabama and kind of flamed out.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2636497-kansas-city-chiefs-draft-picks-results-analysis-and-grades

Quote

On September 1, 2015, the University of West Alabama announced that Hill enrolled and would play football for the Tigers. On the field, Hill was utilized very evenly as a running back (25 carries for 237 yards and one touchdown), wide receiver (27 receptions for 444 yards and a touchdown), punt returner (20 returns averaging 10.7 yards with two touchdowns), and kick returner (also 20 returns averaging 23.0 yards with two touchdowns). In his 11 games for the team, he never exceeded 100 yards rushing or receiving, and averaged 135 all-purpose yards until a 307-all-purpose-yard burst against Delta State in Game 8.

This guy.

https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=132274&DraftYear=2016

Edited December 31, 2022 by nagahide13

[Soko]

12 hours ago, nagahide13 said:

The original argument was that RAS was useless because it had players like Peirce and Hill graded with similar athletic scores. When asked if Pierce and Hill were comparably athletic out of the combine, I said yes. Then all hell broke loose. 

How are you going to accuse other people of strawmanning and then say this? Lol. You can’t quote anybody saying this, you’re making it up.

I specifically asked about Pierce and Hill. Not “out of the combine”. Not, “are there RAS score similar?”. I asked are they comparably athletic. They obviously aren’t, yet their RAS scores would indicate that they are/should be. No one said RAS was useless (another really bizarre misinterpretation). It’s just they’re not going to trump what you can see plainly. I thought using Pierce/Hill was easy, because anyone with eyes could watch the two at the professional level and say “Hill’s the vastly superior athlete”, but I guess not…

Also, since you brought up strawmans, I still don’t know why you said we were talking about production when that never happened between Pierce/Hill. 

[vike daddy]

we like Hockenson. a lot.

 

sorry to disrupt your conversation of whatever the hell you're talking about.

[nagahide13]

4 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

How are you going to accuse other people of strawmanning and then say this? Lol. You can’t quote anybody saying this, you’re making it up.

I specifically asked about Pierce and Hill. Not “out of the combine”. Not, “are there RAS score similar?”. I asked are they comparably athletic. They obviously aren’t, yet their RAS scores would indicate that they are/should be. No one said RAS was useless (another really bizarre misinterpretation). It’s just they’re not going to trump what you can see plainly. I thought using Pierce/Hill was easy, because anyone with eyes could watch the two at the professional level and say “Hill’s the vastly superior athlete”, but I guess not…

Also, since you brought up strawmans, I still don’t know why you said we were talking about production when that never happened between Pierce/Hill. 

RAS is combine scores and pro day. You brought up the comparison because they had similar RAS scores. Like I said, I don't think you understand the conversation. What you do understand you're being wildly disingenuous about.

Edited December 31, 2022 by nagahide13