2022 GDT 5-7 Steelers host the 8-4 Ravens

[Steeler Hitman]

31 minutes ago, warfelg said:

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Again, I'm fine with criticism of accountability when it's something he can have an impact.  Playing down to competition? Yup.  Poor clock management? Yup. 

But something that is player related - not taking coaching direction - is not something I will criticize him over.  

 

I am not saying that is all Coach T, but when you see that, change it and something I haven't talked about change the culture of players. I think he is actually working on that now.

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And what frustrates me is again that first statement "the man in overall charge of the team".  Why are Colbert (the man in charge of building the roster) and Art Rooney II (the man who owns the team and has final say) always excused from criticism.  Like this isn't a good roster. It hasn't been a good roster in years.  

As much as we don't like it, the owners get to make the decisions. Dallas fans have been fed up with Jerry Jones and the Raider fans have made the same criticism.  Mr. Rooney doesn't get a pass. Ever see the documentary on Dan Marino, when they talk about how The Chief on his death bed whispers to his son, "You shoulda drafted Marino!"  

I agree with you. It isn't a good roster for the style that would be best for Steelers football. I think Mr. Colbert tried to change that and they did some things to cater to the style and talent they had. They did not do such a good job in transitioning. Many of us have posted about this as it was happening. We spoke of doing some things "before the window closed."  It is closed and must be reopened. 

Mr. Rooney and Mr. Colbert are responsible as well. It doesn't all fall on Coach T. Team matter, coaching, game management, players are the coach. Getting talent is ultimately the GM. Spending money, the Steelers brand, etc. and the overall condition of the franchise is the owner. You can criticize the owner, but you can't fire him. 

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For a while there's been a lot of investment in the top end of the roster year after year since 2015, the bottom of the roster has fallen out.  And I'll add this little bit (I know you haven't been one to do this), people want to complement Colbert over good picks, and blame coaches for making the pick when it fails.  That's the sign of a weak GM to me if he lets himself get overrun like that or frankly a bad structure in the draft room.

I agree with you here. I have not done it. In fact, that is the biggest criticism of the Steelers is not being able to get solid mid round picks and of course find football players at CB and not great athletes. Someone has to have the final say. I think that Coach T and Mr. Colbert had a good relationship. Rarely should you have to pull rank. But agree, if it is something that can be detrimental, then you pull rank if you have to.

About coaching accountability. I remember in SB 30 the clip of Bill Cowher saying, "For the record this onside kick is my call. I will take responsibility if it fails."  Or something to that affect. That is ownership and leadership. I am not saying Coach T doesn't do that because he does as well. 

 

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To give an example of what bothers me: Colbert always talked about how he felt like a mock was unnecessary because he felt they knew what the 1st round looked like for months, yet it felt like in a 5 draft stretch, we got caught with our pants down.  Almost every team does mocks for a reason - so they can be ready for every phone call, can be ready for every outcome, can be ready for what to do when their target goes.  I think the Artie Burns pick is the perfect example of why you have to know that stuff.  Then he always said that 3rd round is when he felt the draft begins because the board is less predictable - but why do you allow a coach to have big input and not lean on your scouts.  I do look around at what other teams do at those times - and even into the 4th-7th rounds its the GM/Asst GM/Head of Scouting that makes the press conversations, not the positional coaches.  IIRC we're the only team where positional coaches talk about drafted players that soon.

I completely agree with you about not being prepared for the draft. I  mock is a tool that can  certainly help prepare you. Yes, the Steelers have had hits, but also misses. Again, I am with you here. I still am up in arms about Terrell Edmonds in the first round.  I liked him as a Steelers, but as you say to me about the NG types in round one, (he was a third or fourth rounder to me). This where the Steelers should have definitely tried to find a partner to drop down and acquire picks.  I heavily scouted ILB's that year and loved Fred Warner and Dahrius Leonard for the Steelers.  They had golden opportunity to drop down and still pick up who they wanted and some who were actually better than they selected.  

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I've been spending a lot of time listening to former player podcasts and it's opening my eye to taking blame off coaches for things that happen in game.  If the gap assignment and secondary communication were issues across the board all season, then I would be fine blaming coaching.  Like I said was true a few years ago.  But when it's individual games where the issue happens, it really is about players making just bad plays.

Like it or not those are things that the head coach will be held responsible for.  It doesn't matter who the HC is. So if it is the players, the the HC is tasked with speaking to the GM and saying, "Get me some players who can execute what I coach." 

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Like just taking a small part - but the big Dobbins run late.  Heyward was in at NT, Wormley at RDE, Bush at ILB.  

Here is where I am somewhat critical in thinkingThe fact that we can't use Tyson who is also undersized to play that role (NT) hurts as well.  We are asking a 305 lb guy to do what a 330 lb guy could naturally do. Heyward could be at DE and as far as Bush, see my earlier comment about getting players who can play your scheme. 

Off the snap, Heyward is doubled by the RG and OC.  You have a 305 pound guy taking on a 290 lb C and 320 lb or 365 lb if Ben Cleveland was there. That's not putting your best DL in position to win. Maybe that's out of necessity because you have no one else. We are trying to get people to do things that are not as natural to them. Cam is a 3-4 DE or DT and never a NG.  That is poor scheme. 

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He works on a two gap control with both.  Meanwhile Wormley gets too wide lining up in the B gap so he no longer has 2 gap control, and right off the bat goes further into the B gap.  Now that's not a killer mistake, you can get away with it.  But then Bush is slow off the snap.  He doesn't fill the hole, which gives time for the OC to work Heyward to the OG, passing him off, and for the OC to climb the hole and take on Bush.  Coaching is telling those players to attack the hole, hold the gap.  But players making those mistakes.  Seeing the B gap being big and attacking it too aggressively, your ILB hesitating, allowing the offense to properly block it is just on the players.  No amount of coaching can fix those mistakes.

Then you get players who can play your scheme and at the same time put players in the best situation to create mismatches that favor you.  This where you hear out coached or out schemed criticism.

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On the flip side, look at the A gap on the offensive right side.  Leal maintains the gap, Heyward holds the RG, Jack fires out of a cannon at the FB, and Edmunds is in the hole to make a tackle.  NOW the reason it was a big gain isn't because that issue at the line happened.  Its what it caused on the backside.  Wallace was playing really flat at the LOS because of the side the FB lined up on (strong side) and he needs to come in at too flat of an angle to make a tackle.  Minkah is looking for outside contain because Bush is supposed to take the hole and didn't, so now Minkah has to cross the entire field to get to Dobbins.

Again on the TD run, I come to the issue of Bush.  They run a jet action to put the WR in a lead blocking role then run the RB off the back of that action in the same direction (this should be a sign of how bad our jet action is).  So the Ravens are flow zone blocking to their right.  Larry O does a good job of getting hands on the RT and RG, but his anchor point is turned and allows both to work off their blocks.  Bush needed to shoot the gap open to him there and it would blow up the play because the RT would have needed to stick with Larry O, and the RG would have needed to get a hand on Bush.  Instead Bush keeps going with the flow action, and Larry O tries to split the block.  So the RT can get to Bush who's flowing right down the goal line (terrible field awareness), and the RG gets to Edmunds.  About the only guys who did what he should on that play were Watt who turned back his man to seal the edge, and Minkah who got lower that the FB to make Dobbins cut upfield.

So again, those things are likely being coached right.  You want to know how I'm confident in that? Throw on tape of the few games before that and these exact same plays were stopped.  It's more about player execution.

 

Player execution and Bush are the common themes here. We need a good ILB mate to put next to Myles Jack.

I'm on board with moving on from Matt Canada.  But the mauling OL thing, I don't need maulers.  If you look at some of the better run blocking OL's they aren't real maulers, they are more smart heady blockers that understand angles.  As RPO keeps coming bigger in the NFL, that's what you need.  

This is philosophy difference that's all. It is like a boxer versus a puncher. You love to have a boxer with knockout power, but I love the knockout. 

Two centers I was all about the last two drafts (and even one that plays OG) in Humphery and Linderbaum are not exactly what you would call maulers but they are two of the highest rated run and pass blocking centers in the NFL.  Why?  They regularly put on clinics at using angle blocking, hand placement, and foot movement.  

I loved Linderbaum despite not being huge and because of his technique.  However, he will struggle with a huge NG in the middle where he won't win technique every rep. This was Pouncey's problem against NG's particularly late in his career. I loved Landon Dickerson and Quinn Mienerz because they had mean streaks, attitude, and size. I think Humphrey would have been a Steeler had Freiermuth not been there. Nothing wrong with what you are saying, I prefer the Ben Cleveland's who are big, strong, and mauling. They want to move people out of their way.  They impose their will upon you and move you where you don't want to go (to the tune of 215 yards). 

Mason Cole is growing on me because that's what he does really well.  Daniels does that really well, but he can just downhill block when he needs to.  Dodson has massively regressed in this regard, as on the right side he did good getting the angles and move blocking.  On the left side he's just so regularly lost.  Missing blocks, getting blown off the ball, not recognizing who's his responsibility.  I think Dodson is a pure RG, and an average at best pure RG.  That's a quick way out of the NFL.

I have been impressed with the development and consistency of Cole and Daniels.  The rest of the line needs upgraded. Dotson has been a disappointment after a promising start. 

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Yes we need one.  I've stated I'm on that.  I'm against spending a 1st round pick on a guy that splays 40% of the snaps or spending big, unless you can get a guy like A'Shawn Robinson or Javon Hargrave who can both rush the passer or take away running lanes because then when they do the 4-2 alignment you are giving something up.  

I'll pick on this one - yes Jordan Davis has been great for the Eagles.  Their run defense is awesome with him in there.  But he's only playing 35% of snaps and comes out on passing downs.  Even when he's in there on a passing down he's not getting any push and not getting doubled.  Reminder, they spent a 1st round pick on a guy playing 1/3 of the snaps.  If I'm spending a 1st on a guy, they need to play at least 2/3 of the snaps from day 1 (or at least you feel comfortable to be able to do so).

 

Jordan Davis is a rare talent. He is playing limited because he has Fletcher Cox and Hargraves in front of him.  He would play more on our DL.  I was on the Davis bandwagon  and I liked Trevor Penning.  I like attitude, toughness, and a mean streak.  I am glad we got our QB, now we need to get some guys to better protect him. 

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So this ties back to the holding Tomlin accountable thing - I won't support parts of the team that make the bad decisions.  Hence why for years I pushed to move on from Colbert.  The whole FO structure wasn't working.  It's why I was so for an outside hire for the GM opening.  I wanted someone who wasn't used to "the Steelers way" to come in and take that accountability.

The Steelers took your advice and got a guy from the Eagles to assist in the player selection/scouting side.  Most forget that Mr. Colbert came from outside of the organization in Detroit. The Steelers like getting the guys with the local ties though.

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For years @43M and I were leading the charge of the FO isn't working, they need to embrace that the roster needs overhauled, they were doing too much to appease Ben and give him "one last ride".  Supporting them despite these bad decisions is why they keep doing things like that.  In the end viewers, butts in seats, merch sales is what shows support.  Not doing those things to show there's a dislike of what they are doing is how we as fans can impact this stuff.

No argument. I agree and I think that the team imploded in part because of it. 

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The issue is that brand of football doesn't win as much anymore.  You need a faster defense to defend the whole field, both the width and length.  And offensively you need to use as much of the field as possible to create the mismatch and get an open player.  Hence why teams like the Ravens and Titans have struggled in the playoffs.  They don't make you defend the full field, you just contain then swarm.

Very true statements here!!!

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The thing to me that makes the best teams good is they can go smash mouth to wide field to deep passing with the same personnel on the field, and that's where we're behind.  We can't do that.  

Agree 100%

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Need to defend the run, Adams, Bush, Jack need to go in.  Wanna defend the pass, then those three need to come out, Spillaine, Kazee, and Maulet need to go in.  But if the offense can catch us with the wrong group on the field and they have that flexible personnel, they can easily move the all.

I am looking to upgrade this group.  Bush may need to try to recreate himself elsewhere.  Spillane is one of my favorites, but like Dirt Red when he was here, is extremely limited.  I would look to upgrade.  Adams needs to be a part of a rotation, Jack needs to be Robin and not Batman.  The philosophy is sound and I agree. We need the players to do it consistently. Spillane is really not a bad back-up, but there is a drop off, it isn't as noticeable because Bush has not consistently played to the level he was growing to since his knee injury.

That to me is where it's more on the GM problem and where the accountability needs to go.  Made a bad trade up to get Bush.  And tried to constantly fill next to him with cheap players (Spillane was a trash heap pick up, there was also Bostic try, Schobert, Barron) because there wasn't the ability.  Then you add in all the draft missteps.  Bush (and giving up so much to get him), Mark Robinson isn't getting a hat, Buddy Johnson not getting a hat and cut after 1 year, and not drafting a single ILB 2016-18.  To me that's just a mismanagement of just a single positional group as an example of how accountability.  None of these guys play regularly on another team.  I think Bostic is the only one that gets snaps anymore of the ILB's we've tried and let go.

Great points and those fall on the lap of the personnel department.  I thought Schobert would have been a nice pick-up, but it probably happened two years later than it should. His play was trending down.  I think Myles Jack can be Robin if they find a Batman and will occasionally be Kato (outshine the Green Hornet/star) with the right pieces around him.

Great discussion Warlfeg. I love it!!!

[warfelg]

Great feedback @Steeler Hitman and appreciate it.  On the plays thing: We’re done a ton of the Cam at NT thing the last 3 years and it’s usually an effective tool.  But when you need to get then is the DE’s to not get wide when Cam is at NT, and that’s exactly what happened.

 

I’d argue the play I highlighted - It’s not bad scheme.  It was a good scheme because right at the snap exactly what you want to have happened presented itself.  It’s the backs on backers drill.  One on one - LB meet RB in the hole.  But Bush’s hesitation means Linderbaum could pass Hayward off the double and climb to the LB level.  Like I pointed out on the other side of where the run went - Jack did exactly what you wanted and took the hole away.  On the side the play went to, Leal went too far out, Bush didn’t fill the hole, and boom you have either the ability for an OL player to climb or the hole to be there.  And both happened.

10/10 times I have 0 issue with the scheme and player collection out there.  21 personnel against our base package 3-4 with 2 2-gap DL (Heyward and Leal) and 1 1-gap (Larry O).  The weight equation doesn’t really matter because Heyward plays with great leverage, Leal did not which is why he was so easily moved and lost his 2 gap responsibility. (FWIW I think this came right after Adams holding flag and Alualu just came off the field that play because he was winded).

[Steeler Hitman]

On 12/13/2022 at 1:12 PM, warfelg said:

Great feedback @Steeler Hitman and appreciate it.  On the plays thing: We’re done a ton of the Cam at NT thing the last 3 years and it’s usually an effective tool.  

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But when you need to get then is the DE’s to not get wide when Cam is at NT, and that’s exactly what happened.

You need everything to click because we have a 305 LB 5-tech guy playing as a NG. In specialty situations, I get where you may try to create mismatches, but more often than not you need a highly disciplined defense where everyone knows and does their thing. When we had lesser athletes, we had very smart and disciplined players: Smith, Foote, Clark, etc.

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I’d argue the play I highlighted - It’s not bad scheme.  It was a good scheme because right at the snap exactly what you want to have happened presented itself.  It’s the backs on backers drill.  One on one - LB meet RB in the hole.  But Bush’s hesitation means Linderbaum could pass Hayward off the double and climb to the LB level.  Like I pointed out on the other side of where the run went - Jack did exactly what you wanted and took the hole away.  On the side the play went to, Leal went too far out, Bush didn’t fill the hole, and boom you have either the ability for an OL player to climb or the hole to be there.  And both happened.

We have seen this happen more often than not over the past few years with our ILB group.  Bush gets more because he was a #1 draft choice.  We need an upgrade here.  I also believe when you can keep your ILB/MLB clean, he can flow and tackle. See Raquaan Smith versus us in the same game. 

 

10/10 times I have 0 issue with the scheme and player collection out there.  21 personnel against our base package 3-4 with 2 2-gap DL (Heyward and Leal) and 1 1-gap (Larry O).  The weight equation doesn’t really matter because Heyward plays with great leverage, Leal did not which is why he was so easily moved and lost his 2 gap responsibility. (FWIW I think this came right after Adams holding flag and Alualu just came off the field that play because he was winded).

This is one of those years where we are a play, player, half step, or step away from making plays.  Same with the missed sacks and dropped int's.  No one is questioning Cam. I think he is top five at his position. However, Big bodies will wear down smaller ones if they get to stay on the field and pound, pound, and pound away.  We have seen that far too many times. Get Cam and the ILB/MLB help with a player who can swallow up some blockers or is an immovable force as Big Casey was.  We don't play a ton of 3-4 or 2 gap because of how the game has changed since 2005.  

Tyson won't be back next season and I would not mind seeing his role taken by a huge DT or 1 tech NG. Those guys are harder to move and when you get technicians like Pouncey, DeCastro, and Linderbaum you have a size/physical mismatch.  Big NG's gave Pouncey fits.  We only played Philly every four years, but Fletcher Cox was a terrible one on one match up because he is big, strong, and fast. Those guys struggled and Tyler will struggle moving a bigger, stronger, faster man at NG. That is how you combat finesse and technique (brute size, strength, and technique).