2022 GDT 5-7 Steelers host the 8-4 Ravens

[43M]

4 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I can’t think of who is acting like he’s untouchable. 

You mean aside from the entire national sports media and the majority of non Steeler fans who believe them?

4 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I have two simple rules if you are going to move on from Tomlin:

1) You better have an answer of someone you know is better. 
2) You better know his value around the league because he would have 5 offers 1 hour after we let him go. 

I agree with that....again, why Im not screaming "fire Tomlin".

4 minutes ago, warfelg said:

And yes points can easily to me be invalid when stuff is put onto someone who’s fault it isn’t. I think the place Tomlin is the most underrated is the fact that he takes all that blame regardless of who’s at fault and handles it behind closed doors. I’m personally not a fan, and in fact hate it, when coaches air out the dirty laundry in the media and use the media to correct players. That’s not being a leader. That’s passing the blame. 

Tomlin handles the media and scrutiny well.   I give him that.

Its his team management and coaching skills I am not particularly happy with.

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, 43M said:

Which is why Im not beating the "fire Tomlin"  drum the way I beat on the "fire Canada" drum.

However, I will continue beating the "Tomlin needs to be on the hot seat" drum.

5 ish years ago he should have been on the hot seat. 
 

His seat should be maybe luke warm right now. We knew this was a bad team coming into the year. IMO you don’t make a coaches seat hot when you knew it wasn’t a good team. 
 

Like the thing people are hitting on today, the run defense….it’s still a top half of the league run defense. Even with that Ravens performance. It was top 10 before that. 
 

It’s amazing to me how different this team plays with KP at QB vs Trubs. With KP the defense plays more sound. They don’t feel pressed to makes a play. Yet you could see it in that game. As soon as Mitch came in defense went to crap because everyone left assignments to make a play. And it got worse with every INT. 
 

I know there’s some that would mock this but players know when the other side of the ball won’t make a play. They can feel it. Coaching that solid for that long doesn’t suddenly get bad for a game, something happens that causes it. It’s not just the fact that the Ravens are a good running team, it’s the need to press to make a play because you don’t think the other side is good enough to do it. 

 

[warfelg]

1 minute ago, 43M said:

You mean aside from the entire national sports media and the majority of non Steeler fans who believe them?

I agree with that....again, why Im not screaming "fire Tomlin".

Tomlin handles the media and scrutiny well.   I give him that.

Its his team management and coaching skills I am not particularly happy with.

His team management skills are wildly underrated then. He does an amazing job managing some egos there. And not saying you do this - but when things are good it’s always inspite of Tomlin and when things are bad it’s because of him, even with the exact same players. And I’d make this argument on Tomlins coaching being good; how many players have gone elsewhere and been successful after being a guy who did good here? Sanders, Conner, and who?
 

Also on that national media thing - so many were down on this team for so long, they see us overachieving the last few years and that’s why they think he shouldn’t go. 

[warfelg]

Bad karma comes for teams that disrespect Renegade or the Towel. 

[Steeler Hitman]

@warfelgI like and support Coach T, but he is the HC and is the man in overall charge of the team. Because I like him doesn't exclude him from constructive criticism or accountability.  I agree you can't change players mid game. However, you can make in game adjustments. It won't always work.  I am not and was not saying EVERYTHING is Coach Tomlin's fault. He owns more than 10% of the team issues because he is 100% head coach. I, like 43mafia, am also on the fire Matt Canada train. I am also on the get back to the mauling OLs. I am also for getting a NG (and he doesn't have to be a top ten pick) just get one. I don't agree with all of the teams decisions, but I still support them. I want to see this team go back to more traditional Steelers football (tough defense and smashing people in the trenches). From business, to life, I think taking accountability is important. 

[Steeler Hitman]

8 hours ago, jebrick said:

They need to change their philosophy on their front 7.  They need to get DTs with some sand in their pants to play 2 gap in the middle.  Even if they get one for 4 years then get another.  They are basically playing a 4-3 alignment now with the OLBs having their hands on the ground a lot of the time. 

Otherwise, they need to improve their Cbs and play with 3 Dlinemen.

That's what I am saying. Yes thank you 💯🔥 keywords change & philosophy. 

[warfelg]

Both times KP has gotten injured he’s said it his fault. He needs to go. 

[warfelg]

9 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

@warfelgI like and support Coach T, but he is the HC and is the man in overall charge of the team. Because I like him doesn't exclude him from constructive criticism or accountability.

Again, I'm fine with criticism of accountability when it's something he can have an impact.  Playing down to competition? Yup.  Poor clock management? Yup. 

But something that is player related - not taking coaching direction - is not something I will criticize him over.  

And what frustrates me is again that first statement "the man in overall charge of the team".  Why are Colbert (the man in charge of building the roster) and Art Rooney II (the man who owns the team and has final say) always excused from criticism.  Like this isn't a good roster. It hasn't been a good roster in years.  

For a while there's been a lot of investment in the top end of the roster year after year since 2015, the bottom of the roster has fallen out.  And I'll add this little bit (I know you haven't been one to do this), people want to complement Colbert over good picks, and blame coaches for making the pick when it fails.  That's the sign of a weak GM to me if he lets himself get overrun like that or frankly a bad structure in the draft room.

To give an example of what bothers me: Colbert always talked about how he felt like a mock was unnecessary because he felt they knew what the 1st round looked like for months, yet it felt like in a 5 draft stretch, we got caught with our pants down.  Almost every team does mocks for a reason - so they can be ready for every phone call, can be ready for every outcome, can be ready for what to do when their target goes.  I think the Artie Burns pick is the perfect example of why you have to know that stuff.  Then he always said that 3rd round is when he felt the draft begins because the board is less predictable - but why do you allow a coach to have big input and not lean on your scouts.  I do look around at what other teams do at those times - and even into the 4th-7th rounds its the GM/Asst GM/Head of Scouting that makes the press conversations, not the positional coaches.  IIRC we're the only team where positional coaches talk about drafted players that soon.

9 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I agree you can't change players mid game. However, you can make in game adjustments. It won't always work.  I am not and was not saying EVERYTHING is Coach Tomlin's fault. He owns more than 10% of the team issues because he is 100% head coach.

Listening to Cam Heyward's podcast, Big Ben's, Arthur Moats - they constantly say the same thing...Tomlin does make a ton of in game adjustments.  Moats a few weeks ago said a good one.  He recalled playing in a game that we gave up a lot of yards on the ground (I think it was a Titans or Jags game) and halfway through the 2nd, Tomlin had the DE adjust by shading more to the OT so Moats and the other LOLB could take on the TE/FB and not the OT.  Well first DE didn't line up right.  Second DE lined up right but crashed inside right away.  First DE came back, lined up right, but tried to shoot the gap.  Moats recalled coming off the field and Tomlin was screaming at them.

I've been spending a lot of time listening to former player podcasts and it's opening my eye to taking blame off coaches for things that happen in game.  If the gap assignment and secondary communication were issues across the board all season, then I would be fine blaming coaching.  Like I said was true a few years ago.  But when it's individual games where the issue happens, it really is about players making just bad plays.

Like just taking a small part - but the big Dobbins run late.  Heyward was in at NT, Wormley at RDE, Bush at ILB.  Off the snap, Heyward is doubled by the RG and OC.  He works on a two gap control with both.  Meanwhile Wormley gets too wide lining up in the B gap so he no longer has 2 gap control, and right off the bat goes further into the B gap.  Now that's not a killer mistake, you can get away with it.  But then Bush is slow off the snap.  He doesn't fill the hole, which gives time for the OC to work Hewayrd to the OG, passing him off, and for the OC to climb the hole and take on Bush.  Coaching is telling those players to attack the hole, hold the gap.  But players making those mistakes.  Seeing the B gap being big and attacking it too aggressively, your ILB hesitating, allowing the offense to properly block it is just on the players.  No amount of coaching can fix those mistakes.

On the flip side, look at the A gap on the offensive right side.  Leal maintains the gap, Heyward holds the RG, Jack fires out of a cannon at the FB, and Edmunds is in the hole to make a tackle.  NOW the reason it was a big gain isn't because that issue at the line happened.  Its what it caused on the backside.  Wallace was playing really flat at the LOS because of the side the FB lined up on (strong side) and he needs to come in at too flat of an angle to make a tackle.  Minkah is looking for outside contain because Bush is supposed to take the hole and didn't, so now Minkah has to cross the entire field to get to Dobbins.

Again on the TD run, I come to the issue of Bush.  They run a jet action to put the WR in a lead blocking role then run the RB off the back of that action in the same direction (this should be a sign of how bad our jet action is).  So the Ravens are flow zone blocking to their right.  Larry O does a good job of getting hands on the RT and RG, but his anchor point is turned and allows both to work off their blocks.  Bush needed to shoot the gap open to him there and it would blow up the play because the RT would have needed to stick with Larry O, and the RG would have needed to get a hand on Bush.  Instead Bush keeps going with the flow action, and Larry O tries to split the block.  So the RT can get to Bush who's flowing right down the goal line (terrible field awareness), and the RG gets to Edmunds.  About the only guys who did what he should on that play were Watt who turned back his man to seal the edge, and Minkah who got lower that the FB to make Dobbins cut upfield.

So again, those things are likely being coached right.  You want to know how I'm confident in that? Throw on tape of the few games before that and these exact same plays were stopped.  It's more about player execution.

9 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I, like 43mafia, am also on the fire Matt Canada train. I am also on the get back to the mauling OLs.

I'm on board with moving on from Matt Canada.  But the mauling OL thing, I don't need maulers.  If you look at some of the better run blocking OL's they aren't real maulers, they are more smart heady blockers that understand angles.  As RPO keeps coming bigger in the NFL, that's what you need.  

Two centers I was all about the last two drafts (and even one that plays OG) in Humphery and Linderbaum are not exactly what you would call maulers but they are two of the highest rated run and pass blocking centers in the NFL.  Why?  They regularly put on clinics at using angle blocking, hand placement, and foot movement.  Mason Cole is growing on me because that's what he does really well.  Daniels does that really well, but he can just downhill block when he needs to.  Dodson has massively regressed in this regard, as on the right side he did good getting the angles and move blocking.  On the left side he's just so regularly lost.  Missing blocks, getting blown off the ball, not recognizing who's his responsibility.  I think Dodson is a pure RG, and an average at best pure RG.  That's a quick way out of the NFL.

9 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I am also for getting a NG (and he doesn't have to be a top ten pick) just get one.

Yes we need one.  I've stated I'm on that.  I'm against spending a 1st round pick on a guy that splays 40% of the snaps or spending big, unless you can get a guy like A'Shawn Robinson or Javon Hargrave who can both rush the passer or take away running lanes because then when they do the 4-2 alignment you are giving something up.  

I'll pick on this one - yes Jordan Davis has been great for the Eagles.  Their run defense is awesome with him in there.  But he's only playing 35% of snaps and comes out on passing downs.  Even when he's in there on a passing down he's not getting any push and not getting doubled.  Reminder, they spent a 1st round pick on a guy playing 1/3 of the snaps.  If I'm spending a 1st on a guy, they need to play at least 2/3 of the snaps from day 1 (or at least you feel comfortable to be able to do so).

9 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I don't agree with all of the teams decisions, but I still support them.

So this ties back to the holding Tomlin accountable thing - I won't support parts of the team that make the bad decisions.  Hence why for years I pushed to move on from Colbert.  The whole FO structure wasn't working.  It's why I was so for an outside hire for the GM opening.  I wanted someone who wasn't used to "the Steelers way" to come in and take that accountability.

For years @43M and I were leading the charge of the FO isn't working, they need to embrace that the roster needs overhauled, they were doing too much to appease Ben and give him "one last ride".  Supporting them despite these bad decisions is why they keep doing things like that.  In the end viewers, butts in seats, merch sales is what shows support.  Not doing those things to show there's a dislike of what they are doing is how we as fans can impact this stuff.

9 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I want to see this team go back to more traditional Steelers football (tough defense and smashing people in the trenches). From business, to life, I think taking accountability is important.

The issue is that brand of football doesn't win as much anymore.  You need a faster defense to defend the whole field, both the width and length.  And offensively you need to use as much of the field as possible to create the mismatch and get an open player.  Hence why teams like the Ravens and Titans have struggled in the playoffs.  They don't make you defend the full field, you just contain then swarm.

The thing to me that makes the best teams good is they can go smash mouth to wide field to deep passing with the same personnel on the field, and that's where we're behind.  We can't do that.  Need to defend the run, Adams, Bush, Jack need to go in.  Wanna defend the pass, then those three need to come out, Spillaine, Kazee, and Maulet need to go in.  But if the offense can catch us with the wrong group on the field and they have that flexible personnel, they can easily move the all.

That to me is where it's more on the GM problem and where the accountability needs to go.  Made a bad trade up to get Bush.  And tried to constantly fill next to him with cheap players (Spillane was a trash heap pick up, there was also Bostic try, Schobert, Barron) because there wasn't the ability.  Then you add in all the draft missteps.  Bush (and giving up so much to get him), Mark Robinson isn't getting a hat, Buddy Johnson not getting a hat and cut after 1 year, and not drafting a single ILB 2016-18.  To me that's just a mismanagement of just a single positional group as an example of how accountability.  None of these guys play regularly on another team.  I think Bostic is the only one that gets snaps anymore of the ILB's we've tried and let go.

[jebrick]

4 minutes ago, warfelg said:

To give an example of what bothers me: Colbert always talked about how he felt like a mock was unnecessary because he felt they knew what the 1st round looked like for months, yet it felt like in a 5 draft stretch, we got caught with our pants down.  Almost every team does mocks for a reason - so they can be ready for every phone call, can be ready for every outcome, can be ready for what to do when their target goes.  I think the Artie Burns pick is the perfect example of why you have to know that stuff.  Then he always said that 3rd round is when he felt the draft begins because the board is less predictable - but why do you allow a coach to have big input and not lean on your scouts.  I do look around at what other teams do at those times - and even into the 4th-7th rounds its the GM/Asst GM/Head of Scouting that makes the press conversations, not the positional coaches.  IIRC we're the only team where positional coaches talk about drafted players that soon.

This has pissed me off to no end.  The sprint to the podium.  Not waiting to hear an offers.  I really, really, REALLY hope this changes.

[warfelg]

4 minutes ago, jebrick said:

This has pissed me off to no end.  The sprint to the podium.  Not waiting to hear an offers.  I really, really, REALLY hope this changes.

I slammed my computer shut when I was watching that episode of their draft docuseries and he straight up said "we don't do it because we're confident in our board".  Contrast that with the Eagles - every coach and scout gets assigned a team, and every Friday for 2 months they gather, and run a mock so they can see moving up, moving down, getting back into the 1st, refining their board based on who would be there.  And the Eagles (outside of the Chip Kelly years) were constantly one of the better drafting teams.  It's because they ran this stuff.  They were ready for a call with Tennessee to give up picks to get AJ Brown.  They were ready for the cost to move up during the draft for Jordan Davis.  They trained to be ready for that.  Colberts comments on the approach to the draft always hit me with an air of arrogance.

[August4th]

13 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I slammed my computer shut when I was watching that episode of their draft docuseries and he straight up said "we don't do it because we're confident in our board".  Contrast that with the Eagles - every coach and scout gets assigned a team, and every Friday for 2 months they gather, and run a mock so they can see moving up, moving down, getting back into the 1st, refining their board based on who would be there.  And the Eagles (outside of the Chip Kelly years) were constantly one of the better drafting teams.  It's because they ran this stuff.  They were ready for a call with Tennessee to give up picks to get AJ Brown.  They were ready for the cost to move up during the draft for Jordan Davis.  They trained to be ready for that.  Colberts comments on the approach to the draft always hit me with an air of arrogance.

Steelers replacing colbert with the number 2 guy from the eagles has me wondering if we'll embrace the eagles way of drafting. Getting a new OC and the steelers draft philosophy changing are the two biggest offseason stories for me right now

[warfelg]

8 minutes ago, August4th said:

Steelers replacing colbert with the number 2 guy from the eagles has me wondering if we'll embrace the eagles way of drafting. Getting a new OC and the steelers draft philosophy changing are the two biggest offseason stories for me right now

Khan still have top say so I’m not getting too hopeful. I’m worried he’ll pull a little “this is they way we’ve always done it. 
 

And back when we were one of the few if not only teams looking for 3-4 guys and athletic OL it worked because we wanted something no one else did. Problem is everyone wants what we want now. It’s harder to fine guys that are tweeners. It’s harder to find OL who can move in space. And that’s despite those players becoming more prolific. 
 

So adhering to the old way of doing things hurt us in the long run. When you spend 3-4-5 years paying 6-7 position top 10 money, you better damn well be good at drafting. And we weren’t. So we paid those top guys top money and then failed so supplement them with good cheap talent. That’s why I’d get so frustrated in offseason. Effort would be put into keeping guys and pay them very highly. Like there was a point (Heyward/Hargrave/Tuitt) where was had the highest paid DL, the lowest paid LBs (Williams/Barron) and we’re a terrible run defense. We put too much into the DL and not enough into the LB. There was no balance to that team building. And then you had a point of having to hit at ILB in the draft because you couldn’t afford a halfway decent ILB to come in. 
 

Ugh I need to calm down before work. 

[MOSteelers56]

1 minute ago, warfelg said:

Ugh I need to calm down before work. 

Nah man, embrace the anger. Let the hate flow through you. Work is for chumps. May as well be hyped for it lol

[warfelg]

4 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Nah man, embrace the anger. Let the hate flow through you. Work is for chumps. May as well be hyped for it lol

LOL. I'm just worked up because I feel like me and @43M were broken records for the last 4 years, and now that everything we said happened and people are acting shocked that it's happening just....ugh.  And I'm not saying I need the praise, kiss the ring, worship the ground reaction; god knows I got plenty wrong too; but the blowback for not being surprised we aren't a good team is grating.

As much as I think about giving up on caring as much; as much as @43M talks about not watching games; at the end of the day we're fans that care.  I know in the end I wouldn't actually go that far with it.  I think the issue to me is my lack of "care" or "anger" about bad games like this one is placed in the fact this team isn't talented.  So getting reactions like "oh my how are we this bad, it's all coaching problems" or "but we were still set up to possibly make the playoffs why do you not care about bad plays" is tiring.

That's why I'm honestly kinda frustrated with this season and talking about stuff.  In fact, 2019 was the litmus test year.  No Ben, was the rest of the roster good enough that you could get buy with not having top 10 QB play.  The answer was no.  And we went into a mode of "one last ride" rather than "build a transition".  And I know some people thing Najee and Pat were part of that, trading and signing a high level defense is that....it's not.  Spending high picks on OL.  Letting a Juju walk so you have that space to bring in a need...that's building a transition.  What I see right now is a bridge team.  It's like nothing is good enough, but hey if we strike gold with a QB he can mask the issues.  That's not sustainable.  But fans liked it and defended it.

[August4th]

20 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Khan still have top say so I’m not getting too hopeful. I’m worried he’ll pull a little “this is they way we’ve always done it. 
 

 

I get that concern, but I'm banking on the idea of khan being a young guy who wants to build his own legacy apart from colbert. I think Khan will still run some things like Kevin, but there will still be changes. I think hiring someone like andy from philly could be a sign of that. You don't bring in a guy like that only ignore him when it comes to team building. especially when he comes from a organization who currently has a 11-1 team