The STL Cardinals Thread - Welcome to STL JJ!

[kgarrett12486]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

I dont want league average at RF, that will hurt your defense overall, without question. If they would stop the charade and put him in LF where he basically just has to catch average Flyballs, I would be completely fine with that, but for some reason we are still on this RF thing. 

I dont think he has ever really an OF in his life till the last couple of years, it was mostly 3B, he isnt naturally an OF and it is painfully obvious to see.

Yes he got better from last year, but that isnt saying much since he was dreadful at times out in RF. Im not going to celebrate him being average and not being lost. Especially when his efforts to be an OF have clearly taken its toll on his ability at the plate. Had we just stuck him in LF (or better yet DH) and let him become a Major League level hitter, THEN see if he could make the transition to RF, that could have been worthwhile. Going about it this way is a hinderance to him and this team.

He is a natural infielder, 1B more likely would be a much simpler transition. Im just expecting the December column of "Walker training with Oquendo with new mitt" at this point after we move on from Goldschmidt this offseason

I don't think any of us want league average RF play in an ideal scenario, but it's not like we have anyone knocking down the door as that prototype RF defender. Burleson is below average across the baord there; Donovan is average, but doesn't have the arm. Nootbaar has graded out as slightly above average in RF over his young career, but as we know you can't rely on him to stay healthy for any consistent stretch thus far. We don't have anyone knocking on the door in the minors. Unless we're going out and trading for someone with a bat that profiles as that RF, I just don't see the inernal option that forces my hand. It's not like he's gotten worse there, he has shown improvement on defense at the positon. If it was going the other way, that's where I would have been more concerned. I mean we see infielder to outfielder conversions all the time throughout MLB with guys coming up. It's not like we're doing something uncoventional here. It just takes time and he's been going through the process for less than (2) calender years, which isn't long at all.  

I don't disagree with the thought that ideally he's better suited for LF at this point in his development, especially given how much of a weapon his arm could be. I think we're forgetting though that it wasn't really the Cardinals that pushed him to RF. It was a (2) fold factor in that we still had Tyler O'Neill as a GG caliber LF at time he came up and fact that they gave Walker chance in LF with O'Neill's injury/struggles and Walker expressed more comfort in playing RF. 

IMO, you don't move him to 1B unless you 1] have a clear upgrade in RF who profiles as that prototype RF both with bat and defensively 2] you're forced to move him to 1B because he shows he can't do it, we're not there IMO. 

[holt_bruce81]

I’m predicting Braden Montgomery is our future RF. 

[CWood21]

23 minutes ago, holt_bruce81 said:

I’m predicting Braden Montgomery is our future RF. 

I just don't see it if we're being honest.  My guess is Hagen Smith or Bryce Rainer.  Maybe JJ Weatherholt if he this far?  I don't think Caglianone or Kurtz are going to be high enough up on the Cardinals' board.  The Cardinals have taken a 1B-only type in the first round since they took Chris Duncan back in 1999.  Even Brett Wallace was drafted as a 3B.  I just don't think the Cardinals have taken a player in the first round that is coming off a significant injury.  I think Cleveland is down to either Weatherholt or Bazanna at 1, Condon almost certainly goes to Cincinnati, and I think Colorado likely picks between Burns and Caglianone.  I think Oakland takes Bazanna if he falls, but otherwise I think they might actually end up with Weatherholt.  Since 2017, they've drafted almost all players up the middle.  I think Montgomery has been linked to Oakland though.  Feels like Chicago picks between one of the college bats.  Think KC likely is down to Smith and Rainer.  I'd probably give the lean to Smith though.

[kgarrett12486]

With all of the Jordan Walker talk, it got me thinking on if we need to adjust our expectations of what kind of piece he may end up being (assuming he eventually comes back around with the bat, which I think he will - he's been too good a hitter at every level, including the MLB in second half of 2023).

I think most of us, from what was being preached from the scouting pundits and the organization hype thought this guy may end up having immense power and ability to hit 30+ bombs on consistent basis. After seeing him up here, his approach and given he had a GB rate of over 50% in his cumulative time in MLB, maybe he was mis-judged. I know it's probably still way too early to make this assumption, but maybe he's not in the traditional Paul Goldschmidt in his prime mold and more of a Matt Holliday type guy. A guy who's still a really high end MOTO bat and perinnial All-Star level player, but not that franchise superstar on his own and a type who'sgoing to be in the conversation for MVP (Holliday only had 1 year he finished inside top 5 voting).

Matt Holliday was more of a contact hitter with his approach and even had a 45% career GB rate (49% his rookie year). Holliday wasn't exactly the best defenser either, but was pretty much league average across his career. 

I think that is the ceiling I'm now hoping for with Walker. An STL like Holliday. A guy who never topped 30 HR's here, but consistently put up around 25. What seperated Holliday though was the ability to hit those lines dves for authority that turned into doubles. He consistently hit 30+ doubles every season and that drove in majority of his RBI's. That's the step I'm hoping to see with Walker, him becoming that doubles machine, because with as big/strong as he is he can run into 20 HR's a season. 

[MOSteelers56]

2 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

With all of the Jordan Walker talk, it got me thinking on if we need to adjust our expectations of what kind of piece he may end up being (assuming he eventually comes back around with the bat, which I think he will - he's been too good a hitter at every level, including the MLB in second half of 2023).

I think most of us, from what was being preached from the scouting pundits and the organization hype thought this guy may end up having immense power and ability to hit 30+ bombs on consistent basis. After seeing him up here, his approach and given he had a GB rate of over 50% in his cumulative time in MLB, maybe he was mis-judged. I know it's probably still way too early to make this assumption, but maybe he's not in the traditional Paul Goldschmidt in his prime mold and more of a Matt Holliday type guy. A guy who's still a really high end MOTO bat and perinnial All-Star level player, but not that franchise superstar on his own and a type who'sgoing to be in the conversation for MVP (Holliday only had 1 year he finished inside top 5 voting).

Matt Holliday was more of a contact hitter with his approach and even had a 45% career GB rate (49% his rookie year). Holliday wasn't exactly the best defenser either, but was pretty much league average across his career. 

I think that is the ceiling I'm now hoping for with Walker. An STL like Holliday. A guy who never topped 30 HR's here, but consistently put up around 25. What seperated Holliday though was the ability to hit those lines dves for authority that turned into doubles. He consistently hit 30+ doubles every season and that drove in majority of his RBI's. That's the step I'm hoping to see with Walker, him becoming that doubles machine, because with as big/strong as he is he can run into 20 HR's a season. 

That’s a pretty good comparison. I’ve never thought of Holliday when thinking of Walker, but it could be pretty spot on. 

[CWood21]

Today is the day.  Any guesses on who our pick is tonight?

[ttitansfan4life]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Today is the day.  Any guesses on who our pick is tonight?

No guess but anything will do. Farm system is pretty trash right now.

[CWood21]

59 minutes ago, ttitansfan4life said:

No guess but anything will do. Farm system is pretty trash right now.

The Cardinals have graduated quite a bit of talent in recent years, so it makes sense it's not as great as it was in previous years.

[holt_bruce81]

3 hours ago, ttitansfan4life said:

No guess but anything will do. Farm system is pretty trash right now.

It’s not trash. We have some quality pitching prospects in the system right now. The hitting side is kind of weak though. 

[holt_bruce81]

5 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Today is the day.  Any guesses on who our pick is tonight?

I’m guessing Hagen Smith. Everyone says we love Rainer. I think He might be the pick if Smith and Wetherholt are off the board. 

[ttitansfan4life]

This team can not pitch with a lead for nothing 

[StLunatic88]

On 7/12/2024 at 8:33 AM, kgarrett12486 said:

Matt Holliday was more of a contact hitter with his approach and even had a 45% career GB rate (49% his rookie year). Holliday wasn't exactly the best defenser either, but was pretty much league average across his career. 

Let me start with this; I will be happy if Jordan Walker is part of the future of the Cardinals. Although I think expectations of him to be anything close to Matt Holliday are a pipe dream at this point. Holliday didn’t hit as low as Walker last year for the first decade of his career. (Although I’ll say it again, he should be moved to LF for sure) Jordan would need to have a major jump on the horizon, but in reality he is already going the wrong direction this season. I’d currently hope we get something between Stephen Piscotty and Randal Grichuk, which would be a valuable player, but not some star, and absolutely a disappointment for what Walker has been touted as.

But with that being said (and that being a real possibility of an outcome for him) I would also be completely fine shipping him off for a Legitimate bat at a premium position and years of control left. I don’t buy into the “baseball needs toget out of the organization”, but you have to admit we have been better at trading for the main lineup pieces, than cultivating them on our own. Which is a completely fair way to build a roster.

Im talking about a guy like Luis Robert, a guy I would have already shipped Walker off for had he not be banged up so much. But then in reality, would Walker even be enough to get that done if Robert didn’t have some buyer beware stickers on him? Feels like you have to take the chance at some point. We passed on that opportunity with Soto, which I agreed with at the time, and still think it was the right path with what we knew at the time. But it feels like the Cardinal Organization and especially its fans try to cling on to “our guys” way longer than most and then we are selling at rock bottom value lately. (Since basically Brett Wallace)

To me, the only guy I believe is locked in as a future cornerstone to this franchise is Masyn Winn. That’s it. I’d hope that Tink Hence will be added to him soon enough, but I don’t believe we can count on Gorman or Walker anymore. And while Donovan is probably around for a while, he’s not a cornerstone.

i would send Walker to the Sox for Robert tomorrow. I’d take the chances that A) Robert stays healthy enough and we have a decent shot to re-sign him and B) that Walker isn’t going to be some player that we completely regret trading away. I’d probably try to  get the pitcher Fedde in that deal too, that way we would be getting 3+ (Robert) and 1+ seasons of value/production at what would likely be under market value in return for Walker (plus the rest of the package)

[MOSteelers56]

23 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

I’d probably try to  get the pitcher Fedde in that deal too, that way we would be getting 3+ (Robert) and 1+ seasons of value/production at what would likely be under market value in return for Walker (plus the rest of the package)

I think I'd do that one. I bet we'd have to add more to it than Walker, though. We could be something if we had a star bat and another solid pitcher. It'd allow us to use Edman as a utility guy(if he's ever going to be here) giving Gorman, and to a much lesser degree Winn, time off. 

Future could look like Donovan at LF, Robert at CF, Noot at RF. Burly at 1B, Gorman/Edman 2B, Winn SS, Nado(but hopefully someone in the near future) at 3B, WIllson and Herrera at C. That's a really solid group. 

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I bet we'd have to add more to it than Walker

Yea I wasn’t assuming straight up, especially trying to add in Fedde. But going into the next 3 seasons with a top of the lineup and f Winn-Robert-Arenado-Contrares would be one heck of a start. And then fill in Burleson/Donovan/Gorman/ whoever else is left after the trade would be a darn good lineup. 

Again, I know the injury concerns, but I would surely take that risk with Robert vs the risk that Walker turns into JAG or even worse nothing at all.

Now, anything less than a package for Robert (or someone of his talent) then sure I’d roll the dice with Walker

Walker, Herera, McGreavy++ for Robert & Fedde? Does that get us close?

[CWood21]

Given the board, the Cardinals made the right pick.  Welcome to St. Louis JJ Wetherholt!