Justin Fields

[Madmike90]

 

 

[beardown3231]

15 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

 

 

There was a 17 game stretch where Trubisky had more passing yards and 200 less total yards than that + a slightly worse QBR. This is why pulling stats is a little disingenuous because I can make anyone look good

Let's let the final 4 games play out and see what happens, because if he goes 17-30 for 114 yards and 2 turnovers on 1/7/24 nobody will care that Fields was pretty good against the Lions on 12/10/23

Edited December 17, 2023 by beardown3231

[Epyon]

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

you can't weight his rookie year against this year.

His "This year" isn't good either.  It's better.... but it is still miles from being what it needs to be, in order to contend for rings.

[Madmike90]

9 minutes ago, Epyon said:

His "This year" isn't good either.  It's better.... but it is still miles from being what it needs to be, in order to contend for rings.

 

Tell me this list isn't terrifying?

Again your talking about competing for rings before we even have a #3 WR on the roster...Fields isn't the biggest problem on this squad...not by a long shot and until you give him some talent around him we are never going to know for sure...if he sucks after you do then not a problem...parachute a new QB into an extremely talented offence in 2025...but like I said if your not 100% sure he can't be the guy then you better not give up on him because his raw talent is as such that someone will bring it out of him fully and everyone involved with this franchise will look like idiots.

[JibjeResearch]

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

 

 

If the Defense had played like it was playing recently, the Bears would have won more games than 2 lolz ahahah🤣🤣😂

Edited December 17, 2023 by JibjeResearch

[Epyon]

34 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

 

Tell me this list isn't terrifying?

Again your talking about competing for rings before we even have a #3 WR on the roster...Fields isn't the biggest problem on this squad...not by a long shot and until you give him some talent around him we are never going to know for sure...if he sucks after you do then not a problem...parachute a new QB into an extremely talented offence in 2025...but like I said if your not 100% sure he can't be the guy then you better not give up on him because his raw talent is as such that someone will bring it out of him fully and everyone involved with this franchise will look like idiots.

The most terrifying thing about that list is that two of those years included Patrick Mahomes (On pace to be the GOAT), and CJ Stroud (who is having the probably the most successful career a rookie has ever had)..  BOTH of which, the Bears had the opportunity to draft and instead said "nah we good".

And those are just the two obvious wasted opportunities I can see without deep diving each class. I'm  sure there are plenty of other examples. Russell Wilson was a third rounder and miles better than anything we had at the time. Ditto Hurts.... Rodgers was 24th overall... Lamar Jackson was 32nd.... Failure to make the make the pick is far scarier to me than making the pick and failing. At least Williams has a shot at being an elite passer, I genuinely don't know how anyone could think the same about Fields at this point.

[Sugashane]

2 hours ago, Epyon said:

The most terrifying thing about that list is that two of those years included Patrick Mahomes (On pace to be the GOAT), and CJ Stroud (who is having the probably the most successful career a rookie has ever had)..  BOTH of which, the Bears had the opportunity to draft and instead said "nah we good".

And those are just the two obvious wasted opportunities I can see without deep diving each class. I'm  sure there are plenty of other examples. Russell Wilson was a third rounder and miles better than anything we had at the time. Ditto Hurts.... Rodgers was 24th overall... Lamar Jackson was 32nd.... Failure to make the make the pick is far scarier to me than making the pick and failing. At least Williams has a shot at being an elite passer, I genuinely don't know how anyone could think the same about Fields at this point.

Fields is a great guy, he is an electric athlete, but I just don't see him as a great QB. For all the talk of progression I look at the points scored, and the Bears are under 21 ppg. They went from 18, to 19, to under 21 and this is all with a weak SoS.

They are right at or in the bottom 10 in total yards, yards per play, turnovers lost, attempts and completions, passing TDs, INTs (good chunk of that goes to Bagent though in his brief... odd starting time), Net Yards/Pass Attempt, First Downs, Percentage of Drives that end in a turnover, and for how dependent the team is on rushing they are only 15th in rushing TDs with 11.

Has there been progression? Sure. Would the little Fields has done this year persuade me to give him his megadeal? No chance in hell. I wouldn't franchise him at this point either.

If Eberflus is staying then I stack the roster and try to trade 1.1, he doesn't get another QB at this point. If I am getting Harbaugh or Johnson then I think part of the appeal for the job is having 1.1 to get the QB they want because I don't believe for a second they say the team is going to be better throwing $30+ mil at Fields than a rookie they can develop and allocate those funds around him.

A good but not elite QB like even Cousins is more important to winning than a single elite WR or OT. I wouldn't bet money that MHJ is ever at Larry Fitzgerald's level but Larry only had 5 winning seasons to his name. Joe Thomas has 1 in his whole career (dude deserved so much better than CLE). Cousins has been over .500 in 5 of his 9 seasons as a starter and has been .500 twice, then been 7-9 twice. I hope I'm not in the minority that I want more from the megadeal-earning QB than Kirk Cousins.

[Madmike90]

3 hours ago, Epyon said:

The most terrifying thing about that list is that two of those years included Patrick Mahomes (On pace to be the GOAT), and CJ Stroud (who is having the probably the most successful career a rookie has ever had)..  BOTH of which, the Bears had the opportunity to draft and instead said "nah we good".

And those are just the two obvious wasted opportunities I can see without deep diving each class. I'm  sure there are plenty of other examples. Russell Wilson was a third rounder and miles better than anything we had at the time. Ditto Hurts.... Rodgers was 24th overall... Lamar Jackson was 32nd.... Failure to make the make the pick is far scarier to me than making the pick and failing. At least Williams has a shot at being an elite passer, I genuinely don't know how anyone could think the same about Fields at this point.

That is just pure revisionist history though…it’s easy to say guys were good picks after the fact and I will 100% say had Mahomes came here he would have more than likely been a bust…he dropped into the perfect spot with Andy Reid and an offence that was already great with tons of weapons and the ability to sit for a year…had he not ended up in KC he was going to the Saints in the exact same situation…here we would have trotted him out with garbage from day one…this is exactly the situation we should be avoiding by building the position groups first around Fields then if it doesn’t work out drop a new QB into a great situation…we are seeing all around the league…most of these young QBs are being made by the talent around them…not the other way around.

[Epyon]

13 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

That is just pure revisionist history though…it’s easy to say guys were good picks after the fact and I will 100% say had Mahomes came here he would have more than likely been a bust…he dropped into the perfect spot with Andy Reid and an offence that was already great with tons of weapons and the ability to sit for a year…had he not ended up in KC he was going to the Saints in the exact same situation…here we would have trotted him out with garbage from day one…this is exactly the situation we should be avoiding by building the position groups first around Fields then if it doesn’t work out drop a new QB into a great situation…we are seeing all around the league…most of these young QBs are being made by the talent around them…not the other way around.

Good players elevate the talent around them.  Rodgers carried god knows how many awful GB rosters over the years with shear talent.  Fields isn't carrying anything.... He's not dead weight, but he's not exactly putting the team on his back either.

It's also not at all revisionist history.... The players where there to be taken. They where not taken. The only thing that is, is a direct failure to identify and acquire the appropriate talent when the opportunity arises.  We have had chances to pull the trigger and get a real offense. We have consistently failed at that. I don't see how passing on that opportunity YET AGAIN is somehow going to be the answer here. At some point we need to stop accepting mediocrity in the passing game. It simply isn't how championships are won.

But if we where to accept the premise that QBs are made entirely by the talent around them:

1. Does this not completely excuse Williams having a "down year"? USC as a program was literally on his back tighter than a Jansport.  He had no defense, no offensive line, and his only year with any receiver worth a damn, he looked like a generational prospect and won the Heisman. His numbers also weren't even terrible this year, and our roster would be by far the most talented OL/skill position grouping he's ever seen by a mile.... and that's before using any other draft picks on weapons/OL, which we'd almost assuredly do.

2. Meanwhile Fields hasn't looked like a good enough passer since he was at Ohio State, when he literally had 4x future top 15 pick WR around him, and a stacked offensive line. Was he carrying them, or where they carrying him? How realistic is it for to try and round up THAT MUCH talent on one roster? We could legitimately get a receiver Trio of Moore, MHJ, and Nabers, for a few years, which is up there, but we'd also have to pay Fields within 2 years, and you're not going to be able too keep paying everyone without major sacrifices elsewhere. 

3. Furthermore, what in the world are you planning on doing at OC.... Getsy isn't doing anyone any favors, and now you're talking about resetting the entire offense.... AGAIN.... when he has to be replaced,  in the remaining 2 years before Fields has to get paid, so even the developmental time needed for a rookie QB argument doesn't hold water.

4. If you want to try and argue that Fields never had the weapons or talent around him to be put in a position to succeed, I'd actually agree with you there. I'm thrilled we turned the defense around, but this entire season the #1 priority was always about "seeing what we had in Fields". There's a very real argument we completely failed to do that, because the clear priority was revamping the defense. Drafting Darnell Wright, and gaining DJ Moore in trade where both also huge moves, but the #2 and #3 WR positions are both wide open right now. Neither Velus nor Scott have done anything, Mooney clearly regressed, and the passing game continues to be inconsistent at best. The problem here, is that it's too late. The whole reason we needed to know this year is because we had 2 First rounders this year to potentially move around for a QB..... the fact that one of those picks ended up being #1 overall is just a cherry on top. We are out of time to decide whether we're doing JF1's 5th year option, and this QB class is much more highly regarded than the classes around it. If you still don't have a clear answer after this year, you have your answer (and a potential organizational problem for failing to properly run the experiment by providing the tools for a proper evaluation).

[Madmike90]

11 minutes ago, Epyon said:

Good players elevate the talent around them.  Rodgers carried god knows how many awful GB rosters over the years with shear talent.  Fields isn't carrying anything.... He's not dead weight, but he's not exactly putting the team on his back either.

It's also not at all revisionist history.... The players where there to be taken. They where not taken. The only thing that is, is a direct failure to identify and acquire the appropriate talent when the opportunity arises.  We have had chances to pull the trigger and get a real offense. We have consistently failed at that. I don't see how passing on that opportunity YET AGAIN is somehow going to be the answer here. At some point we need to stop accepting mediocrity in the passing game. It simply isn't how championships are won.

But if we where to accept the premise that QBs are made entirely by the talent around them:

1. Does this not completely excuse Williams having a "down year"? USC as a program was literally on his back tighter than a Jansport.  He had no defense, no offensive line, and his only year with any receiver worth a damn, he looked like a generational prospect and won the Heisman. His numbers also weren't even terrible this year, and our roster would be by far the most talented OL/skill position grouping he's ever seen by a mile.... and that's before using any other draft picks on weapons/OL, which we'd almost assuredly do.

2. Meanwhile Fields hasn't looked like a good enough passer since he was at Ohio State, when he literally had 4x future top 15 pick WR around him, and a stacked offensive line. Was he carrying them, or where they carrying him? How realistic is it for to try and round up THAT MUCH talent on one roster? We could legitimately get a receiver Trio of Moore, MHJ, and Nabers, for a few years, which is up there, but we'd also have to pay Fields within 2 years, and you're not going to be able too keep paying everyone without major sacrifices elsewhere. 

3. Furthermore, what in the world are you planning on doing at OC.... Getsy isn't doing anyone any favors, and now you're talking about resetting the entire offense.... AGAIN.... when he has to be replaced,  in the remaining 2 years before Fields has to get paid, so even the developmental time needed for a rookie QB argument doesn't hold water.

4. If you want to try and argue that Fields never had the weapons or talent around him to be put in a position to succeed, I'd actually agree with you there. I'm thrilled we turned the defense around, but this entire season the #1 priority was always about "seeing what we had in Fields". There's a very real argument we completely failed to do that, because the clear priority was revamping the defense. Drafting Darnell Wright, and gaining DJ Moore in trade where both also huge moves, but the #2 and #3 WR positions are both wide open right now. Neither Velus nor Scott have done anything, Mooney clearly regressed, and the passing game continues to be inconsistent at best. The problem here, is that it's too late. The whole reason we needed to know this year is because we had 2 First rounders this year to potentially move around for a QB..... the fact that one of those picks ended up being #1 overall is just a cherry on top. We are out of time to decide whether we're doing JF1's 5th year option, and this QB class is much more highly regarded than the classes around it. If you still don't have a clear answer after this year, you have your answer (and a potential organizational problem for failing to properly run the experiment by providing the tools for a proper evaluation).

Sorry man but your clearly not getting this...there are so few QBs in today's NFL who truly elevate the talent around them...why do you think Mahomes is even having a down year this year? He hasn't changed but the guys around him have...why do you think Stroud looked terrible against the Jets without Dell & after Collins went down? The days of the gunslinger who wins no matter who you plug in around them is long gone...the three best QBs in the NFL for taking average talent around them and making them better are Mahomes, Josh Allen & Justin Herbert...look at the records of the last two...you can raise talent around you but only so much...this is a team game more now than ever...also to say Fields hasn't put this team on his back at times is crazy...the dude has taken utter beatings because of the lack of talent around him and he has kept coming back time and time again...put aside throwing the ball for a second...do you believe Caleb has that mental make up? Because that is the biggest question mark for me (I love Caleb throwing the ball by the way when he is playing QB and not trying to pull some crazy **** which will need to be coached out of him in the pros because he does not have the physical make up to make that work time and time again.)

And of course saying we should have taken Mahomes or Stroud is revisionist history...same as saying we shouldn't have taken Trubisky...if those picks hadn't worked out (jury is still out on Stroud by the way) then you wouldn't be saying we should have picked them...also "At some point we need to stop accepting mediocrity in the passing game. It simply isn't how championships are won." there has been one example of the passing leader in the NFL winning the Superbowl...one...and that was last year with Mahomes and if anyone is being honest the Chiefs defence was a massive reason they got through the playoffs and had a shot at a Superbowl...passing the ball still doesn't win you championships.

1. This isn't me being against Caleb...I like Caleb as a prospect...I think he was overhyped and his flaws (size, ball protection, trying to do too much, mental toughness & leadership) are all still there but there is no doubt the guy can make throws that many others just can't...this is me saying the gap between Caleb & Fields isn't as big as some like to believe because some of what Caleb is flawed with Fields is excellent (Size, mental toughness, leadership) and he is getting better at some of the more traditional QB stuff (even through I think "traditional QB" play is becoming less and less of a thing") for me it becomes Caleb and one weapon vs Justin and many and I am backing the team building approach over just having Caleb.

2. The aim should be to draft as much young talent around Fields as you possible can...the idea that you don't so that because in 5 years time you will lose one of them off a rookie contract because you can;t afford to pay them is crazy...give me that problem all day every day.

3. I'm sorry to say it but as much as we all think Getsy is an idiot at times...the NFL does not...every podcast I have listened too where Getsy has been brought up all you hear is how highly rated he is around the league...again I agree he is not great but does giving him more receiving talent allow him to do more? One thing no one can argue is his opening scripts are excellent so he can scheme...does having more talent help him call plays later in the games? I would hope so.

4. "Is it too late?" No...we have him under very managable contract figures for two more years with the 5th year option...I don't understand why anyone thinks the window is closing fast with Fields...not only that even after the 5th year option you can still tag him...your point here is a bit of a contradiction...one one hand we didn't do enough around him with only Wright & Moore coming in but at the same time we should have our answer after this year...I just can't agree with that...I think you put more talent around him this off-season and give him a proper chance to excel...if he doesn't you then drop a new QB into a great situation come 2025. 

 

[Epyon]

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

Fields hasn't put this team on his back at times is crazy...the dude has taken utter beatings because of the lack of talent around him and he has kept coming back time and time again.

He has taken utter beatings because he has slow footwork on his 5 step drop (a full second behind Bagent's), coupled with slow processing, and poor anticipation, causing him to hold the ball to long and get wailed on. And sure he comes back, but he isn't going to keep doing that. Age catches up with everyone, and running qbs taking those kind of hits have an extremely short lifespan. He also has missed multiple games literally every year. 

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

there has been one example of the passing leader in the NFL winning the Superbowl...one...and that was last year with Mahomes and if anyone is being honest the Chiefs defence was a massive reason they got through the playoffs and had a shot at a Superbowl...passing the ball still doesn't win you championships.

I'm not talking about passing leaders..  I'm talking about proven passers. Every qb to win the super bowl has at least one season that absolutely dwarfs Field's best production. 

 

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

The aim should be to draft as much young talent around Fields as you possible can...the idea that you don't so that because in 5 years time you will lose one of them off a rookie contract because you can;t afford to pay them is crazy...give me that problem all day every day.

The point here was illustrating just how stacked Fields needed his offense to be successful. If he really needs Moore, MHJ, and Nabers level talent around him to be successful all the time.... It quickly becomes untenable trying to pay Fields and upwards of 3 elite receivers... You're talking 100 million of your cap every year, or near constant draft investment (at which point your other positions start becoming an issue) 

 

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

can't...this is me saying the gap between Caleb & Fields isn't as big as some like to believe because some of what Caleb is flawed with Fields is excellent (Size, mental toughness, leadership) and he is getting better at some of the more traditional QB stuff (even through I think "traditional QB" play is becoming less and less of a thing") for me it becomes Caleb and one weapon vs Justin and many and I am backing the team building approach over just having Caleb.

I feel Fields is a better runner (by far even), but Williams is imo equally far ahead as a passer. 

They both lack ideal size (though caleb is smaller), both hold the ball too long, and both fumble entirely too much. The difference to me is that Caleb has his eyes down field more, can actually operate a quick game, throw with anticipation, and and make reads efficiently

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

One thing no one can argue is his opening scripts are excellent so he can scheme...does having more talent help him call plays later in the games?

He can scheme opening scripts but his ability to adjust is borderline non existant. I'm clearly on the "draft a QB" bandwagon, but I'd be more upset for retaining Getsy than I would about retaining Fields. 

 

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

"Is it too late?" No...we have him under very managable contract figures for two more years with the 5th year option.

It's not just about Fields, it's about who and how your are replacing him, your draft capital, your draft position, and who is available to be taken. 

Last year was regarded as a weaker class. Next year is as well. The decision on Fields' 5th year option happens this offseason. On the assumption this rebuild is actually moving forward on schedule, this is likely your last real chance to draft your choice of qb, instead of "whoever is left". 

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

then you wouldn't be saying we should have picked them...also

I'm on the record saying that Mahomes was the best qb from his class, "and it's not even close", and was pissed when they picked Biscuit instead. As for Stroud, I can't specifically remember any calls to draft him, since my expectation was evaluating Fields this year, but I did have him well above Bryce Young (though admittedly that was also more about hating Young as a prospect... The kid is simply too small) 

My record picking qbs has hardly been perfect, but my money this year between Fields and Williams is an easy all in on Williams. Nothing in Fields' nfl career has shown me he can be the guy, and I'm swinging hard on this last chance before we presumably have enough talent to be mid tier even with Bagent starting. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Epyon

[Madmike90]

2 minutes ago, Epyon said:

He has taken utter beatings because he has slow footwork on his 5 step drop (a full second behind Bagent's), coupled with slow processing, and poor anticipation, causing him to hold the ball to long and get wailed on. And sure he comes back, but he isn't going to keep doing that. Age catches up with everyone, and running qbs taking those kind of hits have an extremely short lifespan. He also has missed multiple games literally every year. 

I'm not talking about passing leaders..  I'm talking about proven passers. Every qb to win the super bowl has at least one season that absolutely dwarfs Field's best production. 

 

The point here was illustrating just how stacked Fields needed his offense to be successful. If he really needs Moore, MHJ, and Nabers level talent around him to be successful all the time.... It quickly becomes untenable trying to pay Fields and upwards of 3 elite receivers... You're talking 100 million of your cap every year, or near constant draft investment (at which point your other positions start becoming an issue) 

 

I feel Fields is a better runner (by far even), but Williams is imo equally far ahead as a passer. 

They both lack ideal size (though caleb is smaller), both hold the ball too long, and both fumble entirely too much. The difference to me is that Caleb has his eyes down field more, can actually operate a quick game, throw with anticipation, and and make reads efficiently

He can scheme opening scripts but his ability to adjust is borderline non existant. I'm clearly on the "draft a QB" bandwagon, but I'd be more upset for retaining Getsy than I would about retaining Fields. 

 

It's not just about Fields, it's about who and how your are replacing him, your draft capital, your draft position, and who is available to be taken. 

Last year was regarded as a weaker class. Next year is as well. The decision on Fields' 5th year option happens this offseason. On the assumption this rebuild is actually moving forward on schedule, this is likely your last real chance to draft your choice of qb, instead of "whoever is left". 

I'm on the record saying that Mahomes was the best qb from his class, "and it's not even close", and was pissed when they picked Biscuit instead. As for Stroud, I can't specifically remember any calls to draft him, since my expectation was evaluating Fields this year, but I did have him well above Bryce Young (though admittedly that was also more about hating Young as a prospect... The kid is simply too small) 

My record picking qbs has hardly been perfect, but my money this year between Fields and Williams is an easy all in on Williams. Nothing in Fields' nfl career has shown me he can be the guy, and I'm swinging hard on this last chance before we presumably have enough talent to be mid tier even with Bagent starting. 

Yeah we are just not going to agree on this man...

Some of the above points make very little sense to me...how can you possibly say Fields lacks size? He is 3" taller and about 25lbs heavier than Caleb and bigger than the vast majority of QBs...he's not so slow at processing or getting rid of the ball to his one true target but you can't seem to separate that from when he has been asked to throw to bang average talent and you seem to have an issue with drafting young talent around him that would be here for a minimum of 5 years and give you options to sign or trade further down the road...

You also seem to have a warped opinion that had we drafted Mahomes he would be the same guy he is now...not a chance IMO...

We clearly just see this completely differently so no point going round in circles.

[beardown3231]

10 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

 

Tell me this list isn't terrifying?

Again your talking about competing for rings before we even have a #3 WR on the roster...Fields isn't the biggest problem on this squad...not by a long shot and until you give him some talent around him we are never going to know for sure...if he sucks after you do then not a problem...parachute a new QB into an extremely talented offence in 2025...but like I said if your not 100% sure he can't be the guy then you better not give up on him because his raw talent is as such that someone will bring it out of him fully and everyone involved with this franchise will look like idiots.

People said that last year. Get him a better OL and a #1 WR and watch him take off! Poles did that and now it's "get him MORE talent!"  

[AZBearsFan]

7 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

People said that last year. Get him a better OL and a #1 WR and watch him take off! Poles did that and now it's "get him MORE talent!"  

Should we talk more about the non-Moore surrounding talent and how they impact Fields’ stat line now after the CLE game? 

[beardown3231]

18 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Should we talk more about the non-Moore surrounding talent and how they impact Fields’ stat line now after the CLE game? 

Did I say anything that was wrong? Everyone said in year 3 Fields needed a better OL and a #1 WR. He got it, and now the same people are saying he needs more.

Would Nabers and a guy like Josh Reynolds be nice? Yes. Would it help any QB? Yes, but if he specifically needs all of that, maybe it's time to move on and find a better player to throw them the ball.

Even if Scott catches his and Tonyan catches his, Fields is still throwing for 54% today and about 6 yards per attempt. That isn't good enough even in a win. (mind you, Cleveland dropped 2 INT's and he fumbled again after standing in the pocket for 5 seconds)

So, no, we shouldn't. He was the same Fields today. It's too up and down as a thrower. Very rarely are QB's surrounded by 3 great receivers and 3-4 Pro Bowlers on the OL.

Edited December 17, 2023 by beardown3231