Chiefs WR Corps

[Chiefer]

1 hour ago, Jakuvious said:

I'm going to go with an unpopular take and say Mahomes needs to suck it up and throw to these guys, whether he trusts them or not. Yes, Moore dropped what should've been a TD, and week 1 was absolutely atrocious from the WRs. I get the lack of trust. But this entire game on offense was Mahomes not making decisions within the structure of the offense, playing backyard ball, and paying the price fairly often for it. I don't exactly think our WRs are good, but I know the plays Andy and Nagy are calling are not designed for him to be in the pocket for 4 seconds, turn back and forth, roll out, and then chuck it. He's gotta at least try to hit guys on time. Young guys are never going to get anywhere without some trust and some opportunities.

yeah the problem is that Mahomes ain’t gonna change, and we ain’t ever moving off of him. So either we get his some WRs that will get open and he can trust or we’re gonna get more of the same. 
 

he’s clearly been going through progressions and nobody is getting open, I’m sure the play isn’t designed to go 4 seconds, but don’t act like it’s because the WR Corp isn’t awful, because it is. 

[Chiefer]

Like don’t get me wrong Mahomes hasn’t been playing great, although he has the flu and gashed his left hand last gamed  but the WR corp is doo doo butter. No wonder he demanded more money during training camp once he saw what he’s got to work with. I wouldn’t take a pay cut to play with them either 

[Jakuvious]

2 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

yeah the problem is that Mahomes ain’t gonna change, and we ain’t ever moving off of him. So either we get his some WRs that will get open and he can trust or we’re gonna get more of the same. 
 

he’s clearly been going through progressions and nobody is getting open, I’m sure the play isn’t designed to go 4 seconds, but don’t act like it’s because the WR Corp isn’t awful, because it is. 

I don't agree. We've seen this before, like two years ago or whatever it was when he was taking obscenely deep drops from not trusting his OTs. Many blamed the OL, but it became clear over time that it was just as much a Mahomes issue, and he needed to adjust, and he very much did. I think this is the same. At this point, I find it far less likely that we have 8 full weeks of multiple WRs being completely incapable of ever getting open, than Mahomes just isn't trusting what he has and what he sees.

Like, last year, Toney had one of the highest target rates per snap and per route run. He didn't see the field often because of the mid season trade and the playbook, but he saw 17 targets in 109 snaps. 15.6% of snaps he was on the field, he was thrown to. 2021 Cooper Kupp was at 18.6%. Did Toney forget how to get open? Or did week 1 ruin Mahomes's trust in him? Skyy Moore's primary attribute everyone praised in draft lead up was his route running and his ability to get open. Did that all vanish? Did he forget? Throw in that Reid is obviously one of the best at scheming guys open. I just don't buy that no one can get open when the OL is holding up and Mahomes has like 5 seconds back there before he twirls out or runs into Donovan Smith.

I think Mahomes doesn't trust anyone but Watson and Kelce, and regardless of what led to that, he needs to get over it. And I think he will, for the record, because he is as great as he is. But it is only fair for him to get called out when he's part of the problem too.

[Chiefer]

14 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

I don't agree. We've seen this before, like two years ago or whatever it was when he was taking obscenely deep drops from not trusting his OTs. Many blamed the OL, but it became clear over time that it was just as much a Mahomes issue, and he needed to adjust, and he very much did. I think this is the same. At this point, I find it far less likely that we have 8 full weeks of multiple WRs being completely incapable of ever getting open, than Mahomes just isn't trusting what he has and what he sees.

Like, last year, Toney had one of the highest target rates per snap and per route run. He didn't see the field often because of the mid season trade and the playbook, but he saw 17 targets in 109 snaps. 15.6% of snaps he was on the field, he was thrown to. 2021 Cooper Kupp was at 18.6%. Did Toney forget how to get open? Or did week 1 ruin Mahomes's trust in him? Skyy Moore's primary attribute everyone praised in draft lead up was his route running and his ability to get open. Did that all vanish? Did he forget? Throw in that Reid is obviously one of the best at scheming guys open. I just don't buy that no one can get open when the OL is holding up and Mahomes has like 5 seconds back there before he twirls out or runs into Donovan Smith.

I think Mahomes doesn't trust anyone but Watson and Kelce, and regardless of what led to that, he needs to get over it. And I think he will, for the record, because he is as great as he is. But it is only fair for him to get called out when he's part of the problem too.

We literally run a platoon of #4 WRs + Rice, they’re not getting open with any consistency. It’s been 8 weeks and it’s still the same. Yeah Mahomes is playing hero ball a lot which is compounding the issue, but he’s likely pressing so hard because he doesn’t trust his WRs and they suck. It’s a endless cycle feeding into each other

Skyy isn’t a good route runner, he doesn’t understand timing, or the subtleties of route running. Not only that but he also has shown severe deficiencies in tracking the ball in the air. From fielding punts, to locating a ball on 4th down in the air as it’s hitting his hands. He only runs one good route, the out route, he’s the CEH of the WR corp at this point of his career.

Im sure Mahomes gets over it, but this WR corp ain’t getting any better. There’s only so much scheme(which teams have begun to figure out btw) you can do with little talent to work with. There’s no getting over trust and chemistry, that’s silly, especially for a guy like Mahomes who’s always been very picky. I’m just not gonna get my hopes up we’re gonna turn into that high flying offense of yesteryears

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Chiefer

[Chiefer]

Was reading that the WR coach has literally no experience coaching, so a rookie coach trying to coach up this WR corp it’s no wonder they’re making tons of mistakes and not running routes properly.

[Chiefer]

“In order to be considered open and consistently be targeted in the NFL (and most especially in an Andy Reid offense), all of the following have to be true:

 

• The receiver has to release correctly and on-time. Meaning if they're on a switch release where they need to delay to make the concept work, they can't charge out at the snap.
• The receiver has to correctly apply coverage route conversions and option route changes.
• The receiver has to stem and break correctly and on-time. This includes details like turning the right direction on a curl or stick break.
• The receiver has to create separation
• In a scramble drill, the receiver needs to not only create separation outside of their route concept, but do so in a way that works toward the QB's line of vision as they scramble.

Many of those things not happening are why they're not getting targeted. Yes, Kelce is far more consistently targeted....there are very good reasons for that.”

[Chiefs_5627]

 

 

 

[Habbsawce]

Mantra should be printed in the WR room, that simply says "Catch the Damn Ball"

[Jakuvious]

Okay, since I don't have the time or means to watch footage, I found a Tweet where someone pulled some examples of the kind of thing I'm talking about here:

The third one especially. He threw a tight pass to a very covered Kelce, over a wide open MVS 30 yards downfield. And the protection is there. I get the WRs haven't been great and so he doesn't trust them, but we're now at the point where him not trusting them is a bigger problem than the WRs not being great. You can't not throw to guys because they might fumble or might drop the pass. That's the definition of playing scared. Like, Rice had a terrible drop yesterday. Do we stop throwing to him too now?

[onejayhawk]

I am in agreement.

That said, there are two things of which I am sure. 

1. Mahomes will bring his A-game this week.
2. The team has a week off after the game in Germany.

[Chiefs_5627]

One thing I think that I didn't see brought up: I think we have too many WRs that are just "mirroring", at this point we now have Watson and MVS that basically play the same role, Mecole n KT that play the same role, Skyy and Rice that are playing the same role. I think the hope was that one of them would emerge as the top dog but it's not happening and I think it's due to the fact that it's trotting out the same game plan, hoping Skyy will take the next step instead of keep feeding Rice once he starts moving the needle. 

 

[Chiefs_5627]

4 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Okay, since I don't have the time or means to watch footage, I found a Tweet where someone pulled some examples of the kind of thing I'm talking about here:

The third one especially. He threw a tight pass to a very covered Kelce, over a wide open MVS 30 yards downfield. And the protection is there. I get the WRs haven't been great and so he doesn't trust them, but we're now at the point where him not trusting them is a bigger problem than the WRs not being great. You can't not throw to guys because they might fumble or might drop the pass. That's the definition of playing scared. Like, Rice had a terrible drop yesterday. Do we stop throwing to him too now?

Imo some of these weren't the best examples as Pat already had someone in his face on majority of em but I agree with the overall sentiment. It seems like ever since the "2 high safety" thing became the norm, we're too reliant on giving Pat these little outlets all over the field and we never really push the issue unless it's a terrible team. Part of me thinks that he's being coached out of it a LOT and some of it is lazy route concepts and/or lack of creativity. Rarely do we see much motion or someone running sideline to sideline, it's all slants and curls and "outs" and half the time the WRs are running behind or through each other's routes. Almost like one defender can sit there and watch both receivers or man up with one and fall off to run with the other while the safety picks him up. 

I'm sure a large part is we don't have the WRs to do much else but I do feel the league has caught up to Andy some on these concepts. It's not new anymore. Half the league was doing those little underhand passes up the middle a few years ago and defenses aren't surprised anymore, even when we run, basically, the same play with a little extra wrinkle. You can just see on a couple of those plays, its like Pat doesn't even feel it's an option to hit those slants and tbf the defense is sitting there almost baiting him anyway.

[Chiefer]

19 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Okay, since I don't have the time or means to watch footage, I found a Tweet where someone pulled some examples of the kind of thing I'm talking about here:

The third one especially. He threw a tight pass to a very covered Kelce, over a wide open MVS 30 yards downfield. And the protection is there. I get the WRs haven't been great and so he doesn't trust them, but we're now at the point where him not trusting them is a bigger problem than the WRs not being great. You can't not throw to guys because they might fumble or might drop the pass. That's the definition of playing scared. Like, Rice had a terrible drop yesterday. Do we stop throwing to him too now?

So I see that third play as the only real opportunity for Mahomes to throw it deep, and that’s a miss. MVS is likely the 5th read but I’ll give it to ya, he tunneled on Kelce because he’s reliable. The rest of these plays he’s pressured or sacked before a deep route gets open, which probably plays into the misses as much as trust. That first play he could’ve maybe snuck it in there, but he’d have to throw a bullet and these WRs love popping the ball into the air. Playing scared sure, but in a tight game we didn’t need anymore turnovers

Here’s every third down,  for the most part everybody is covered, or they’re still running their routes at the top of his hitch, therefore a play designed to last longer than 3-4 seconds.  The tight windows have creeping safeties, even his dump offs have a very low likelihood of getting first downs. Reminds me of 2021, running routes into the teeth of the shell defense consistently and expecting the WRs to magically get open. Like I’m not doubting Mahomes is struggling, but he’s also got zero to work with from WR talent perspective or playcalling

Know what a panacea is to teams running shell coverages and a QB who’s struggling? Running the ball, real play action, etc. unfortunately our run game isn’t consistent enough to rely on anymore like last year, largely because we got rid of our two best run blockers. We sacrificed run blocking for better pass blocking, but we’ve got nobody to throw to and a QB who’s not trusting his arm or his WRs. Sometimes the grass ain’t always greener. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Chiefer

[Chiefer]

17 hours ago, onejayhawk said:

I am in agreement.

That said, there are two things of which I am sure. 

1. Mahomes will bring his A-game this week.
2. The team has a week off after the game in Germany.

Mahomes may bring it, but he’s historically not done well against Fangio defenses. We’ve won against him, but Mahomes largely struggles and gets carried in those games.

[EMAW_KSU]

19 hours ago, Chiefs_5627 said:

One thing I think that I didn't see brought up: I think we have too many WRs that are just "mirroring", at this point we now have Watson and MVS that basically play the same role, Mecole n KT that play the same role, Skyy and Rice that are playing the same role. I think the hope was that one of them would emerge as the top dog but it's not happening and I think it's due to the fact that it's trotting out the same game plan, hoping Skyy will take the next step instead of keep feeding Rice once he starts moving the needle. 

 

I disagree, while not a blow you away Number 1, I think Rice has pretty clearly proven he’s the best receiver on our team.  I also think at this point comparing anyone to Toney is an insult to that person.