e16bball Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 4 hours ago, Slappy Mc said: If we don't select a QB early, I want a veteran QB through FA. I would advocate for Russell Wilson, Jacoby Brissett or Kirk Cousins. I also would take a flyer on Jordan Travis with our comp pick from Chase Young trade if available. I want nothing to do with McCarthy or Nix. I also think Penix's injury history is too extensive to consider him. *Edit* I know people are going to complain about "passing" on this "elite" QB class if we go the FA route, but Russell Wilson is almost the perfect QB for a Kliff Kingsbury offense. He would be my 1a if we passed on QBs in the draft. I seriously doubt Sam Howell beats him out, but have a true competition and may the best man win. I think this response leads naturally to another question: what do you anticipate being the competitive window for this team? Cousins and Wilson both turn 36 this year. Are you intending to be a playoff level competitor with them this coming season? The year after? Does their window line up with ours? And I guess I have to ask…how would you intend to entice a big-name 36yo QB to come join one of the league’s worst teams and engage in a “true competition” with Sam Howell? Russell has won a Super Bowl and been an MVP contender, and while Kirk has never won nor contended for anything, he’s also a well-regarded QB — what do you have to pay them to get them to sign off on spending some of their last seasons as part of what appears to be a rebuild of sorts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 2 minutes ago, e16bball said: I think this response leads naturally to another question: what do you anticipate being the competitive window for this team? Really good question that every fan should be asking themselves. IMO, This team will absolutely suck until the roster is turned over. Having a veteran QB can speed that up a bit, but there is a lot of work to be done. 3 minutes ago, e16bball said: Cousins and Wilson both turn 36 this year. Are you intending to be a playoff level competitor with them this coming season? The year after? Does their window line up with ours? Depending on what Quinn and Peters are able to achieve with the roster purge, we are probably a minimum of two years away from any thought of playoffs with a rookie/young QB. Obviously a veteran QB can lift a team to achieve things they may not have been possible otherwise, but that shouldn't be expected. With that said, both of them should know that their window at a SB is closed. Both are likely to get cast off of their previous teams and no serious SB contender is going to be looking at their services. It will most likely come down to years offered and GTD dollars for where they sign. 8 minutes ago, e16bball said: And I guess I have to ask…how would you intend to entice a big-name 36yo QB to come join one of the league’s worst teams and engage in a “true competition” with Sam Howell? Russell has won a Super Bowl and been an MVP contender, and while Kirk has never won nor contended for anything, he’s also a well-regarded QB — what do you have to pay them to get them to sign off on spending some of their last seasons as part of what appears to be a rebuild of sorts? This is probably the easiest question to answer and it piggybacks off my last response. Both are likely getting cast off of their previous location and if they want to "start" anymore in the league, they will likely end up in a place far from being competitive. Russell Wilson seems like the easiest sell with his familiarity with Dan Quinn and fit with Kliff Kingsbury's offense. I will return a question for those who care to answer, what is the harm in signing a veteran QB that is a legitimate upgrade to what we had last year? I understand these "can't miss" QB prospects are shiny new toys, but as Jacoby Brissett proved last year, sometimes having someone that has been there and is more comfortable makes all the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 4 hours ago, Troublez said: I actually think that Jayden Daniels has the highest ceiling because his intangibles are on par with his physical gifts. Everyone loves him. I want to stay put at #2 and draft Jayden; and, I know I know... he is skinny. But his frame looks good to me and I bet he could easily bulk up. It is not that easy to bulk up when you don't have a frame that supports it. He is just not built that way. He doesn't appear to have broad shoulders in the pics I've seen of him and he doesn't seem to have the build to sustain a fair amount of muscle gain. If he is under 200lbs and the last time he ran the 40 was timed at 4.5 according to ASU, if he puts on muscle he is going to run slower. This is what Daniels is. He's skinny. You have to accept this if you decide to draft him. Its as silly as saying "well we can just hire someone to teach him how to slide". Robert hired a damn baseball coach and couldn't figure it out. And personally, I don't think Daniels has the highest ceiling. I think his ceiling is what you just saw. He is going to be a 24-year old rookie and took 5 years to get to this point. Compare his sophomore or even freshman seasons to what Maye and Williams were doing. Their ceilings appear to be far higher based on that alone. This isn't to say Daniels isn't going to be good because he certainly can be but I think there's a lot of caveats that come along with it. Jordan Reid spoke about it today during his talk on Keim's podcast. The guy just takes massive hits. Its almost like he's a magnet for them. I think taking him with Maye on the board would be a move we regret for years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 4 hours ago, Slappy Mc said: I understand ya'lls feelings, but I disagree. Russell Wilson gives you the best results out of any QB available IMO. Yes even better than Caleb Williams. I think we just saw he doesn't. He was on a team with about as good a weapons as you can get being coached by Sean Payton and still failed when it mattered. He is washed. Sam Howell outplayed him in our matchup with them last year. If the idea is to go the vet route I'd rather stay the course with Sam. At least with Sam I'd have a shot at some sort of future success albeit it appears to be a low shot. With Cousins and Wilson you're doing exactly what we've been doing for years. Being just competitive enough to not make the playoffs but not bad enough to get back to WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW. Picking second in the draft with three QBs that would most likely go first overall if the other the two weren't in the same class. I get you don't like this draft class and you are totally allowed to feel that way. However, I think if you're looking to find a class much better its going to be hard to do. Kicking this can down the road is just a mistake in my opinion. While my preference is for Maye to be here I'd gladly accept Daniels as well. I want a future to look forward too. I have no interest in chasing vet and mid-round QBs. Most often that is the road to nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 hours ago, Slappy Mc said: I will return a question for those who care to answer, what is the harm in signing a veteran QB that is a legitimate upgrade to what we had last year? I understand these "can't miss" QB prospects are shiny new toys, but as Jacoby Brissett proved last year, sometimes having someone that has been there and is more comfortable makes all the difference. From my perspective, I think the most prominent “harm” is actually in what you’re viewing as the “benefit” such a move. If we’re in the midst of an “at least two year” roster rebuild, what do we get out of an aging QB who maybe wins more games for us during that period of time? It seems to me that winning more games with Cousins/Wilson in 2024 (and perhaps 2025) only sets us back long-term, because the QB helping win those games isn’t a long-term answer and because those wins are moving us further from blue-chip draft pick status (whether that’s the Unicorn QB we’re waiting for or other high-end talents). To me, if we’re passing on QB in the draft, the move would be just to stick with Howell. Maybe pick some low-investment type like Rattler with a 5th for the competition with Sam. I think that has a higher long-term ceiling (if one of those young guys ends up being good) and a lower short-term floor (in the event that they both suck). Either way, I think it’s better for the franchise long-term than trying to force a rebuilding team into mediocrity with a pretty good but aging QB who will be retiring in a couple years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 hour ago, lavar703 said: I think we just saw he doesn't. He was on a team with about as good a weapons as you can get being coached by Sean Payton and still failed when it mattered. He is washed. What were his "as good (of) weapons as you can get"? I would argue Sam Howell had better weapons at his disposal than Russell did. Russell's results were also better and he turned the ball over less while getting sacked less. 2 hours ago, lavar703 said: Sam Howell outplayed him in our matchup with them last year. If the idea is to go the vet route I'd rather stay the course with Sam. At least with Sam I'd have a shot at some sort of future success albeit it appears to be a low shot. With Cousins and Wilson you're doing exactly what we've been doing for years. Being just competitive enough to not make the playoffs but not bad enough to get back to WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW. Picking second in the draft with three QBs that would most likely go first overall if the other the two weren't in the same class. 18 of 32 308 yards 9.6 YPA 3 TDs 1 INT 7 sacked 31 sack yds 107.3 QBR 27 of 39 299 yards 7.7 YPA 2 TDs 0 INT 4 sacked 33 sack yds 108.8 QBR So the top is Russell and the bottom is Sam. You could argue that he outplayed him based off his QBR or competition percentage, but the notion that he is washed and using this game as a crutch isn't going to help your cause. Russell actually played pretty well behind his terrible O-Line with receivers that can't hang onto the ball. I won't disagree that Sam has more potential for the future than Russ, but this is most definitely a bridge move and not a QBotF thing. You already know I disagree on the QB class, so just to the point of picking second overall, we have done it twice in the past 5 years, so you never know when we will be back here again. The pick to me has to be a cornerstone piece, I don't care about the position, but its a pick that won't come around often. Everyone other than a select few seem to think this is the best QB class for a long time, so I expect them to decide on choosing a QB or trading down. I think it would be foolish to not trade out if they didn't go QB. 2 hours ago, lavar703 said: I get you don't like this draft class and you are totally allowed to feel that way. However, I think if you're looking to find a class much better its going to be hard to do. Kicking this can down the road is just a mistake in my opinion. While my preference is for Maye to be here I'd gladly accept Daniels as well. I want a future to look forward too. I have no interest in chasing vet and mid-round QBs. Most often that is the road to nowhere. I won't disagree with this as a whole, every team is constantly looking for their QBotF and any attempt to not do that is going to be seen as counter-productive. I won't disagree that a rookie QB would have a much higher ceiling than a vet, but I believe the whole team would benefit more long term from an OT/TE/WR that are the unquestioned top of their positions over the any of these QB prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARTMONK HOF Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2: R1 P2 QB Drake Maye - UNC 36: R2 P4 C Graham Barton - Duke 40: R2 P8 G Cooper Beebe - Kansas State 67: R3 P3 LB Cedric Gray - UNC 99: R3 P35 LB Junior Colson - Michigan 102: R4 P2 TE Ben Sinnott - Kansas State 140: R5 P4 WR Malik Washington - Virginia 178: R6 P3 RB Emani Bailey - TCU 221: R7 P2 P Tory Taylor - Iowa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 7 hours ago, Slappy Mc said: I understand ya'lls feelings, but I disagree. Russell Wilson gives you the best results out of any QB available IMO. Yes even better than Caleb Williams. Russell Wilson is at best a band-aid for a few seasons. Then, when he's truly done in a few seasons we will be right back where we are now, trying to find a franchise QB who can be our franchise QB for decades, not just a few years, if even that. I can't believe anyone would be suggesting we trade for Russell Wilson & bring his awkwardness to our locker room after the disaster that was the Carson Went trade two years ago. There's no way I see Kirk Cousins ever coming back here. I guess re-signing Brissett to compete with Sam Howell is a possibility as we draft a QB in the mid to late rounds to develop, but why would Brissett re-sign here? He didn't really get a true chance to start last year as either Howell beat him out straight up or, Brissett was never really given a true chance to start in DC. And, if Brissett is going to be a backup QB, I think he'd much rather do that for a playoff team than for a team that's likely to have a top 10 pick for the 2nd year in a row. As far as trading for Russell Wilson, it's fools gold and it's no different now than in 2022 when we foolishly treaded for Wentz instead of going young and cheap at QB. We would’ve been much better off in 2022 going with Heinickie as our returning starter, Kyle Allen to compete with him to be our starter/be his backup & then drafting Sam Howell to develop behind them/compete with them while we hold onto those 2 third round picks, Landon Collins, Ereck Flowers & Matt Ioannidis who were starter level players that became cap casualties bc of the Wentz trade. Edited February 14 by turtle28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2024 C’s NFL Draft 2. Caleb Williams QB USC 36. Graham Barton OG Duke 40. Jordan Morgan OT Arizona 67. Jaylan Ford LB Texas 100. Sedrick Van Pran OC Georgia 102. Junior Colson LB Michigan 137. Zak Zinter OG Michigan 180. Blake Watson RB Memphis 219. A.J. Barner TE Michigan MY DRAFT FULL RESULTS RESTART More PFN Tools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) My bad, double post. I can't believe it but in this simulation, the Bears took Drake Maye over Caleb, so he fell to us at #2. I wanted to take a tall WR, TE, or slot CB higher but the way the mock fell the OL & LBs were the best players available when I picked and I can't complain about it bc I love this mock. We get our starting QB, a starting LG in Barton and possibly our starting RT & C. They will compete with/ incumbents but Morgan & Van Pram may start over Wylie & Stromberg. Between Jaylan Ford & Junior Colson, one of them should be our starting MLB while Zinter is a stash and hopefully play player in 2025 who was a round 2 prospect before his knee injury vs Ohio State. Blake Watson is an Antonio Gibson replacement & AJ Barber gives us another TE prospect to compete with John Bates & Nate Turner. Edited February 14 by turtle28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 50 minutes ago, e16bball said: From my perspective, I think the most prominent “harm” is actually in what you’re viewing as the “benefit” such a move. If we’re in the midst of an “at least two year” roster rebuild, what do we get out of an aging QB who maybe wins more games for us during that period of time? It seems to me that winning more games with Cousins/Wilson in 2024 (and perhaps 2025) only sets us back long-term, because the QB helping win those games isn’t a long-term answer and because those wins are moving us further from blue-chip draft pick status (whether that’s the Unicorn QB we’re waiting for or other high-end talents). Well for one, it gets you out of being a perennial loser. Ask any players on the team if they would rather 6, 7, 8 or 9 wins over 4 or 5 wins, all of them will take more wins each year. Of course when we know we won't make the playoffs, the fans quickly turn to "lose out for draft position," but we the fans want to win more games as well. Heck it was even said recently with the hire of Dan Quinn, didn't like the hire, but if he wins I could be swayed. It absolutely would be a road to nowhere if the QB came in and wasn't light years ahead of Sam Howell and we ended up rolling with Howell again or if he performed like Carson Wentz did, but I see serious benefit to the entirety of the team to have a QB that can lead them to more wins. 1 hour ago, e16bball said: To me, if we’re passing on QB in the draft, the move would be just to stick with Howell. Maybe pick some low-investment type like Rattler with a 5th for the competition with Sam. I think that has a higher long-term ceiling (if one of those young guys ends up being good) and a lower short-term floor (in the event that they both suck). Either way, I think it’s better for the franchise long-term than trying to force a rebuilding team into mediocrity with a pretty good but aging QB who will be retiring in a couple years. I think a FA QB is a must if we don't go QB early. I think we have to have competency at the position this year. Bring back Brissett, I don't care, but rolling with Howell and a rookie that isn't top of the class is not a viable option IMO. If they draft Rattler and keep Howell, I would still advocate for a journeyman level FA QB (Tyrod Taylor/Jameis Winston type) and just keep 3 QBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 32 minutes ago, Slappy Mc said: What were his "as good (of) weapons as you can get"? I would argue Sam Howell had better weapons at his disposal than Russell did. Russell's results were also better and he turned the ball over less while getting sacked less. 18 of 32 308 yards 9.6 YPA 3 TDs 1 INT 7 sacked 31 sack yds 107.3 QBR 27 of 39 299 yards 7.7 YPA 2 TDs 0 INT 4 sacked 33 sack yds 108.8 QBR So the top is Russell and the bottom is Sam. You could argue that he outplayed him based off his QBR or competition percentage, but the notion that he is washed and using this game as a crutch isn't going to help your cause. Russell actually played pretty well behind his terrible O-Line with receivers that can't hang onto the ball. I won't disagree that Sam has more potential for the future than Russ, but this is most definitely a bridge move and not a QBotF thing. You already know I disagree on the QB class, so just to the point of picking second overall, we have done it twice in the past 5 years, so you never know when we will be back here again. The pick to me has to be a cornerstone piece, I don't care about the position, but its a pick that won't come around often. Everyone other than a select few seem to think this is the best QB class for a long time, so I expect them to decide on choosing a QB or trading down. I think it would be foolish to not trade out if they didn't go QB. I won't disagree with this as a whole, every team is constantly looking for their QBotF and any attempt to not do that is going to be seen as counter-productive. I won't disagree that a rookie QB would have a much higher ceiling than a vet, but I believe the whole team would benefit more long term from an OT/TE/WR that are the unquestioned top of their positions over the any of these QB prospects. What were his "as good (of) weapons as you can get"? That's a decent corp to play with for a supposed elite QB. That's far more than what Mahomes has. -Courtland Sutton -Jerry Jeudy -Marvin Mims -Javonte Williams - Samaje Perine Russell Wilson had garbage numbers before the last drive of the game where he inexplicably was given a completion that never should've counted and was gifted a TD because Emmanuel Forbes tried to catch the hailmary instead of just knocking it down. He basically got 70 passing yards and a TD that never should've happened. Sam far outplayed him in that game. Russ was awful save for one quarter against us. Emmanuel Forbes dropped two interceptions and caught one. Russ realistically could've thrown 4 picks in that game. He is absolutely washed. If he wasn't do you genuinely believe Payton would be getting rid of him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 20 minutes ago, turtle28 said: Russell Wilson is at best a band-aid for a few seasons. Then, when he's truly done in a few seasons we will be right back where we are now, trying to find a franchise QB who can be our franchise QB for decades, not just a few years, if even that. I actually see it more like KC where you have competency, but you identify the future of your team and go get them. People still talking about Philadelphia and Dallas needing a QB to "take them over the hump" and we would be overjoyed to have the kind of performances those QBs are turning in. 23 minutes ago, turtle28 said: I can't believe anyone would be suggesting we trade for Russell Wilson & bring his awkwardness to our locker room after the disaster that was the Carson Went trade two years ago. I never suggested trading for him. His most likely outcome is a full release. The Broncos have no leverage and are in deep water already, a fresh start begins with him being released. 25 minutes ago, turtle28 said: There's no way I see Kirk Cousins ever coming back here. Dan Snyder is gone and money talks. 26 minutes ago, turtle28 said: I guess re-signing Brissett to compete with Sam Howell is a possibility as we draft a QB in the mid to late rounds to develop, but why would Brissett re-sign here? He didn't really get a true chance to start last year as either Howell beat him out straight up or, Brissett was never really given a true chance to start in DC. And, if Brissett is going to be a backup QB, I think he'd much rather do that for a playoff team than for a team that's likely to have a top 10 pick for the 2nd year in a row. New staff. No disingenuous promises by a staff with one shot to save their jobs. I think that would be an awesome QB battle. I actually think Brissett would be a good QB for Kingsbury's offense too. 28 minutes ago, turtle28 said: As far as trading for Russell Wilson, it's fools gold and it's no different now than in 2022 when we foolishly treaded for Wentz instead of going young and cheap at QB. We would’ve been much better off in 2022 going with Heinickie as our returning starter, Kyle Allen to compete with him to be our starter/be his backup & then drafting Sam Howell to develop behind them/compete with them while we hold onto those 2 third round picks, Landon Collins, Ereck Flowers & Matt Ioannidis who were starter level players that became cap casualties bc of the Wentz trade. So let's assume that you didn't think I was suggesting trading for another player about to be released. Now think about Russ throwing to MHJr, McLaurin and Dotson and tell me that would be a bad outcome from an offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 minutes ago, lavar703 said: What were his "as good (of) weapons as you can get"? That's a decent corp to play with for a supposed elite QB. That's far more than what Mahomes has. -Courtland Sutton -Jerry Jeudy -Marvin Mims -Javonte Williams - Samaje Perine Who claimed Russell Wilson is elite? Travis Kelce > That entire WR/RB grouping. Comparing Mahomes to Wilson is laughable. Also that WR core isn't as good as ours and Sutton, their best offensive player, can't stay healthy. 1 minute ago, lavar703 said: If he wasn't do you genuinely believe Payton would be getting rid of him? Yes. He is an alpha and Payton is the better/higher ranked alpha. Same thing happened to him in Seattle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 15 minutes ago, Slappy Mc said: Who claimed Russell Wilson is elite? Travis Kelce > That entire WR/RB grouping. Comparing Mahomes to Wilson is laughable. Also that WR core isn't as good as ours and Sutton, their best offensive player, can't stay healthy. Yes. He is an alpha and Payton is the better/higher ranked alpha. Same thing happened to him in Seattle. Wilson was traded for how many first round picks and players? Apparently people thought he was elite. I think our WR corp is pretty much the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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