New Regime Options

[beardown3231]

33 minutes ago, SLCbear said:

You didn't answer my question.

 What are you doing with Fields ? Are you trading him before Draft at a bargain for another franchise, or waiting a little longer to see if new coaching can unlock his immense potential prior to trade, or riding with JF and passing on CW ? 

 My plan covers all bases. What is your plan that is superior to mine ??

 I wouldn't mind having contol over our wives  the same way that NFL has control over its football players  👍🏻  both VERy diff

He's an ascending player with great stats lately. Why would trading him before the draft be giving another team "a bargain?" Wouldn't they be selling high?

[SLCbear]

7 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Ok, so where do you get that Fields is getting a haul? If he is a star then sure but he isn't. What trade has happened previously that you could compare it to? 

There's no way anyone is throwing a Stafford deal for Fields, they aren't getting what OAK gave up for Carson Palmer either. Both were established franchise QBs, Fields is a project that you're trying to sell on upside. He is almost off the rookie contract so demand would drop compared to what people get when trading for the top overall pick.

So where is it that you get some sort of historical reference for such a trade?

 

Right now, a 2nd is probably the best that we can hope for. If he stays consistent and makes strides over the last 5 games, maybe that gets moved up to a mid-late FRP. 

 if a new regime comes in and JF makes a significant developmental leap prior to next year trade deadline or '25 offseason, then we are looking at a significant trade return. 

 Nothing wrong with CW sitting for a little bit ! when has a redshirt year for a stud draft pick QB ever hurt them ?  and JF most likely gives us the best chance to win week 1 next season !  we don't have to go all in now and can afford to wait and see for a little while 

Now if we didn't have the 2nd top 5-7 pick, and Bowers were not available in this Draft to pair with kmet, my thoughts would be VERY different  

 What plan is better  ??

[SLCbear]

2 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

He's an ascending player with great stats lately. Why would trading him before the draft be giving another team "a bargain?" Wouldn't they be selling high?

True, right now we can probably expect a 2ndRP but  current ascension is w **** scheme and OC  

  we can afford to wait and see if new OC with proper JF scheme further unlocks ascension

 what is a better plan for us ?

[G08]

If they decide to trade Fields I would think the ceiling is a 2nd.

[SLCbear]

26 minutes ago, G08 said:

If they decide to trade Fields I would think the ceiling is a 2nd.

As of right now today, yes a  2nd is likely the ceiling.

If he can stay healthy these last 5 games, hOLD ONTO THE BALL,  and continue making moderate strides then that ceiling rises !

if he starts out hot next season, still only 25  and makes a sig developmental leap w new coaching and scheme, then that ceiling  SIGnificantlY rises  !

 So why not give JF a little more time to develop while CW sits and acclamates some  ?? 

 There is no downside, only upside or at worst lateral movement, and lateral movement doesn't cost us anything. 

[AZBearsFan]

3 hours ago, SLCbear said:

if a new regime comes in and JF makes a significant developmental leap prior to next year trade deadline or '25 offseason, then we are looking at a significant trade return. 

You’ve seen how up in arms the part of our fan base that’s done with Fields got about wanting to play Bagent, and he suuuuuuucks. Do you really think the front office or 2024 coaching staff would have any interest at all in dealing with the scrutiny of having a healthy Caleb Williams on the bench when Fields is anything short of perfect on game day? There’s no frickin’ way. Fields already has the unrealistic expectations of near perfection from many in the masses and in the media. That only gets magnified 100x if Williams is waiting in the wings.

Further, Justin isn’t going to have any interest in being here to keep someone else’s seat warm. And why should he? He’d be an upgrade right now for several teams at QB and that’s if he doesn’t progress at all from where he’s at right now.

 

That’s from last February. I can’t imagine his views have changed, and if he doesn’t want to be here after the FO decides to draft Williams then the far more likely scenario of him staying on our roster is that he either requests a trade or he holds out until he gets one. If you’re the Bears, your leverage goes down in trading Fields away the second you take Williams. On top of that, Fields is very respected in that locker room. Dicking him around like that would rub a whole lot of the team the wrong way, and you’d also be creating an unnecessary potential rift between those on the roster between “Williams guys” and “Fields guys”. Whether that coach in 2024 is Flus in a potential lame duck year or a brand new HC, they’re not going to want to do that to themselves. 

[Bigbear72]

7 hours ago, SLCbear said:

You didn't answer my question.

 What are you doing with Fields ? Are you trading him before Draft at a bargain for another franchise, or waiting a little longer to see if new coaching can unlock his immense potential prior to trade, or riding with JF and passing on CW ? 

 My plan covers all bases. What is your plan that is superior to mine ??

 I wouldn't mind having contol over our wives  the same way that NFL has control over its football players  👍🏻  both VERy diff

If I didn't believe in Fields then I trade him for whatever the market dictates. It is what it is. If you hold on to him that does nothing but create a locker room atmosphere that is toxic and divisive. Make a decision, have a plan and move on whatever that decision is. **** or get off of the pot.

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

I think we have to prepare for the possibility that if Fields goes elsewhere he may be good and we'll just have to accept that and know the Bears were the wrong place for him at the time he was here. They really did about everything wrong by him so honestly I hope he gets a shot with a plan around him. With so much in the air it wouldn't surprise me if the final decision was just about resetting the timer at QB and not being comfortable giving Fields a contract with so much uncertainty around him. 

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW said:

I think we have to prepare for the possibility that if Fields goes elsewhere he may be good and we'll just have to accept that and know the Bears were the wrong place for him at the time he was here. They really did about everything wrong by him so honestly I hope he gets a shot with a plan around him. With so much in the air it wouldn't surprise me if the final decision was just about resetting the timer at QB and not being comfortable giving Fields a contract with so much uncertainty around him. 

I can't wait to hear how stupid the Bears were for letting him go here and in Gen when he has that his crazy-good 3 game stretch, then hear nothing but crickets when he puts up an average of 140 passing yards, .75 TDs, and 1.5 INTs over the next 4 games. 🙄

Edit - That being said I wish him well, I just wish any Bears QB better. lol 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Sugashane

[beardown3231]

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

I can't wait to hear how stupid the Bears were for letting him go here and in Gen when he has that his crazy-good 3 game stretch, then hear nothing but crickets when he puts up an average of 140 passing yards, .75 TDs, and 1.5 INTs over the next 4 games. 🙄

Edit - That being said I wish him well, I just wish any Bears QB better. lol 

Like I said, we were definitely going to regret wanting to get rid of Trubisky too and now Bears fans think NE has a chance in 3 days because he's horse**** and a NE win would be nice for the Bears. Oh how the tables have turned

[SLCbear]

20 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

1. You’ve seen how up in arms the part of our fan base that’s done with Fields got about wanting to play Bagent, and he suuuuuuucks. Do you really think the front office or 2024 coaching staff would have any interest at all in dealing with the scrutiny of having a healthy Caleb Williams on the bench when Fields is anything short of perfect on game day? There’s no frickin’ way. Fields already has the unrealistic expectations of near perfection from many in the masses and in the media. That only gets magnified 100x if Williams is waiting in the wings.

2. Further, Justin isn’t going to have any interest in being here to keep someone else’s seat warm. And why should he? He’d be an upgrade right now for several teams at QB and that’s if he doesn’t progress at all from where he’s at right now.

 

That’s from last February. I can’t imagine his views have changed, and if he doesn’t want to be here after the FO decides to draft Williams then the far more likely scenario of him staying on our roster is that he either requests a trade or he holds out until he gets one.

3. If you’re the Bears, your leverage goes down in trading Fields away the second you take Williams. On top of that, Fields is very respected in that locker room.

4. Dicking him around like that would rub a whole lot of the team the wrong way, and you’d also be creating an unnecessary potential rift between those on the roster between “Williams guys” and “Fields guys”. Whether that coach in 2024 is Flus in a potential lame duck year or a brand new HC, they’re not going to want to do that to themselves. 

1. WHo CARES what the idiot masses think or what they are clamoring for, WELCOME to nFL basement running your organization that way 

2. JF doesn't have a choice and we can't run an organization based on what you think players may or may not do or feel anyways. This is what I meant about having control of the 2 qbs for 4 and 7 yrs respectively. The players  will have to respect what the organization decides to do, and do their best to het in harmony with whichever role they are given. Again this is not the nBA, THANKfully ! 

3. HOW ? how do we lose leverage ?? According to crusty traditional NFL thinking, other teams will believe that we are desperate to trade JF once we draft CW. Holding onto JF and demanding an appropriate return quashes any such PERCEIVED leverage. JF has ZERO leverage. 

4. How is giving JF the keys,  and then telling him it's up to him whether or he holds onto them, DICKING him around ??! JF gives us the best chance to win Week 1 next season.

 

I am not interested in winning some online debate here, my only interest is to identify the BEST possible plan for the organization moving forward.  I get that I am alone here in pushing to hold onto both QBs for a time in order to max out JF while also drafting CW.  I keep asking for a better plan bUT  all I keep getting are crusty old recycled NFL tropes used to  poke  holes   in MY plan. EVERY PLAN has HOLES ! which plan has the least amount of problematic holes and protects the organization MOST  ??! Right now it's my plan. Not because it's MINE, but because nothing has been presented.  

Trading JF for an inferior return just bc thats the nfl way hah is gross negligence  !  He is only 24,  has homerun-every-play ability, and has shown that he is MOST likely a least a solid starter at the position; and he may yet take another developmental leap OR 2, but lets sell before seeing him maxxed out bcause the lockerroom may do this or a player may feel that,  etc   

WE  CONTROL the entire situation !  AND Having  1.1 plus another top 4-7 pick plus an ascending vet like JF will never happen  for us again 

 

 

 

[SLCbear]

18 hours ago, Bigbear72 said:

If I didn't believe in Fields then I trade him for whatever the market dictates. It is what it is. If you hold on to him that does nothing but create a locker room atmosphere that is toxic and divisive. Make a decision, have a plan and move on whatever that decision is. **** or get off of the pot.

So let the current market dictate how you run things when you have FULL control of the situation ??

 'It is what it is'  'does nothing but create toxic lockerroom'  Why ? what makes having both qBs (at least for a little while) and a having a good lockerroom mutually exclusive  ?? 

[SLCbear]

13 hours ago, BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW said:

I think we have to prepare for the possibility that if Fields goes elsewhere he may be good and we'll just have to accept that and know the Bears were the wrong place for him at the time he was here. They really did about everything wrong by him so honestly I hope he gets a shot with a plan around him. With so much in the air it wouldn't surprise me if the final decision was just about resetting the timer at QB and not being comfortable giving Fields a contract with so much uncertainty around him. 

This is EXACTLY why you  hold onto both for a little while

[AZBearsFan]

1 hour ago, SLCbear said:

1. WHo CARES what the idiot masses think or what they are clamoring for, WELCOME to nFL basement running your organization that way 

2. JF doesn't have a choice and we can't run an organization based on what you think players may or may not do or feel anyways. This is what I meant about having control of the 2 qbs for 4 and 7 yrs respectively. The players  will have to respect what the organization decides to do, and do their best to het in harmony with whichever role they are given. Again this is not the nBA, THANKfully ! 

3. HOW ? how do we lose leverage ?? According to crusty traditional NFL thinking, other teams will believe that we are desperate to trade JF once we draft CW. Holding onto JF and demanding an appropriate return quashes any such PERCEIVED leverage. JF has ZERO leverage. 

4. How is giving JF the keys,  and then telling him it's up to him whether or he holds onto them, DICKING him around ??! JF gives us the best chance to win Week 1 next season.

 

I am not interested in winning some online debate here, my only interest is to identify the BEST possible plan for the organization moving forward.  I get that I am alone here in pushing to hold onto both QBs for a time in order to max out JF while also drafting CW.  I keep asking for a better plan bUT  all I keep getting are crusty old recycled NFL tropes used to  poke  holes   in MY plan. EVERY PLAN has HOLES ! which plan has the least amount of problematic holes and protects the organization MOST  ??! Right now it's my plan. Not because it's MINE, but because nothing has been presented.  

Trading JF for an inferior return just bc thats the nfl way hah is gross negligence  !  He is only 24,  has homerun-every-play ability, and has shown that he is MOST likely a least a solid starter at the position; and he may yet take another developmental leap OR 2, but lets sell before seeing him maxxed out bcause the lockerroom may do this or a player may feel that,  etc   

WE  CONTROL the entire situation !  AND Having  1.1 plus another top 4-7 pick plus an ascending vet like JF will never happen  for us again 

1. You don’t think front offices or coaching staffs are conscious of their perception to their fan bases? I mean, wow. I’m not suggesting that they make any decisions based solely on what fans want, but to think that stuff isn’t at all part of the equation is just naive. The McCaskeys don’t want to be embarrassed. The coaching staff doesn’t want to have people chanting for them to be fired at their kid’s HS game. Nobody wants to be a national punchline. 

2. Fields doesn’t have a choice? C’mon, man. Guys hold out and ask for trades or their release all the time. If you’re the Bears and you draft Williams after which Fields says he doesn’t see a future for himself in Chicago and wants out, and you just drafted a different QB with superstar potential with the 1st overall pick, you’re going to force Fields to stick around when the alternative is playing the 1st overall pick QB hoping that that somehow turns out to be a positive for the team? In what world does that make for a good situation for anyone? What are you telling Williams that, after taking him 1st overall, you’re practically begging the guy he was drafted to replace to stay when he doesn’t even want to be there? And for what - because if Fields somehow manages to balls out in the impossible situation you’ve put him in you maybe get a better draft pick for him after in this fantasyland he becomes the super stud he was drafted to be at the most opportune time possible for the organization, at which time instead of keeping the super stud QB we inexplicably trade away the 25 year old star QB we’ve been looking for for 50 years when he finally reaches superstar status. Unconscionable. Which brings me to:

4. (Swapping the order for continuity here) You’re not giving Fields the chance to keep the keys here. You’re literally saying if he plays really well you’re going to trade him away anyway. If he doesn’t want to be here any more in this scenario because you’ve told the world you’re no longer committed to his development by drafting Williams, and your response is essentially 🤷‍♂️ how is that NOT dicking him around? Hell, it’s dicking Williams around too. “You’ll get your turn once we feel like we can get enough back to get rid of the other guy.” FFS. What happens with this wouldn’t just about Fields and Williams either. Players see how you as a staff and organization treat other players. It matters a lot when players have choices to either sign here as FAs or re-sign here before they get to FA. If you’re giving the finger to what has been the undisputed leader in that locker room for the past 2 seasons you’re going to piss a lot of guys off. Frankly, I think Poles respects Fields way too damn much to do that to him. Whether or not he ultimately decides to go another direction at QB, Poles has been effusive in his praise of Fields the man and the leader since the day he got here. Circling back now:

3. The Bears have the least trade leverage in any scenario where they have both Williams and Fields on the roster. Whether they trade Fields in May or October, the other side of the trade knows you’re eventually going to trade him because you just took Williams. The Bears can’t change that part of the equation without being willing to potentially take Williams 1st overall then NEVER play him, which would never happen in a million years, and if it did and they would trade Williams for far less than they’d have gotten to just trade the #1 pick pre draft and let him be drafted elsewhere, which is far worse in terms of adding assets to the roster than taking a lower pick for Fields earlier.

Leverage in negotiations is about pressure points and time. If you draft Williams you’re not picking up Fields’ 5th year option, and even if Fields played all year for us in 2024 after drafting Williams in your scenario and was awesome you’re almost certainly not franchise tagging him with Williams on the roster. So basically, you’ve got a window from the end of April until early November in which you can trade Fields without either losing him for nothing to FA in 2025 or tying up $50M+ in 2025 salary cap to trade him with even less leverage then (because everyone will know you don’t want to carry his franchise tag salary in 2025 when you could otherwise use that $50M+ to make your team way better). When eventually we’d lose Fields for nothing, the other side of any trade will always have a pressure point to lean on to limit our potential return. 

You think trading Fields right after drafting Williams is bad value. I think if you’re going to wait to trade Fields until after you’ve drafted Williams then the earliest trade you can make post draft is probably the best value you’re going to get, and because of that, if the plan is to draft Williams at 1 that a Fields trade has to happen before the draft, and should happen before FA, because that’s when the org. will have its most leverage in a trade. Before the draft, the possibility of not trading Fields is still on the table, and before FA there will be multiple potential suitors who haven’t yet filled their own QB needs in the draft or FA. More options on our side = more leverage = better return. Also, trading Fields before the draft lets us use that draft capital we get in return this year rather than next year. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by AZBearsFan

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

11 hours ago, SLCbear said:

This is EXACTLY why you  hold onto both for a little while

I'm sorry, we're going to have to do this the hard way Hal

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Delete Outcome JF1+CW=Bears2024

New Target Scenario=Fight Sugashane @ Beach

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