NYRaider Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 56 minutes ago, Darbsk said: Kid, are you like 13 or 14 years old or something? It’s genuinely OK to have differing opinions on things, especially things which cannot be proven like this. You don’t like Pierce, no problem. I obviously rate actually doing the job as better experience for, you know, doing the job, clearly you don’t. I can respect that. I like Harbaugh and some don’t, I can respect that. You genuinely think 9 games as an interim coach prepares you more for the rigors of being an NFL head coach than a decade of being a coach at every level within a staff and seeing the day to day grind that every staff member has to go through for a team to be successful? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 22 minutes ago, NYRaider said: You genuinely think 9 games as an interim coach prepares you more for the rigors of being an NFL head coach than a decade of being a coach at every level within a staff and seeing the day to day grind that every staff member has to go through for a team to be successful? Ok let’s try a different tact. This is Ben Johnson’s resume As a coach: Boston College (2009–2010) Graduate assistant Boston College (2011) Tight ends coach Miami Dolphins (2012) Offensive assistant Miami Dolphins (2013–2015) Assistant quarterbacks coach Miami Dolphins (2015) Tight ends coach Miami Dolphins (2016–2017) Assistant wide receivers coach Miami Dolphins (2018) Wide receivers coach Detroit Lions (2019) Offensive quality control coach Detroit Lions (2020–2021) Tight ends coach Detroit Lions (2021) Passing game coordinator Detroit Lions (2022–present) Offensive coordinator Does being an assistant WR coach really help? How about Offebsive quality control coach? I think the big deals here are Passing Game Coordinator and Offendive Coordinator. TE coach a Boston College doesn’t really move the needle for me. Assistant WR coach and WR coach doesn’t really move the needle for me. Now, it’s important to understand I’m a Harbaugh guy so I’m not pushing for Pierce, but this is the highlights of his resume: As a player: Washington Redskins (2001–2004) New York Giants (2005–2009) As a coach: Long Beach Poly HS (CA) (2014–2017) Head coach Arizona State (2018–2019) Linebackers coach/recruiting coordinator Arizona State (2020) Associate head coach/co-defensive coordinator/linebackers coach/recruiting coordinator Arizona State (2021) Associate head coach/defensive coordinator/recruiting coordinator Las Vegas Raiders (2022–2023) Linebackers coach Las Vegas Raiders (2023–present) Interim head coach So, 9 years as an actual NFL player, Superbowl winning starter, that means something to me. He’s been a Head Coach previously, though at a much lower level. Associate head coach twice. He’s currently interim head coach. For the job of Head Coach he’s more experienced. As an NFL position coach he’s less experienced. I put some sway in his NFL career too as he’s been in and around the leadership. Can you see how saying Johnson has X years of experience is kinda misleading for this role? Sure, he’s been a TE coach and WR coach and if he was going for a coordinator role then absolutely I’d agree. Im not advocating for Pierce but he’s the only one of those four whose actually dove the role. My vote is still for Harbaugh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 1 minute ago, Darbsk said: Ok let’s try a different tact. This is Ben Johnson’s resume As a coach: Boston College (2009–2010) Graduate assistant Boston College (2011) Tight ends coach Miami Dolphins (2012) Offensive assistant Miami Dolphins (2013–2015) Assistant quarterbacks coach Miami Dolphins (2015) Tight ends coach Miami Dolphins (2016–2017) Assistant wide receivers coach Miami Dolphins (2018) Wide receivers coach Detroit Lions (2019) Offensive quality control coach Detroit Lions (2020–2021) Tight ends coach Detroit Lions (2021) Passing game coordinator Detroit Lions (2022–present) Offensive coordinator Does being an assistant WR coach really help? How about Offebsive quality control coach? I think the big deals here are Passing Game Coordinator and Offendive Coordinator. TE coach a Boston College doesn’t really move the needle for me. Assistant WR coach and WR coach doesn’t really move the needle for me. Now, it’s important to understand I’m a Harbaugh guy so I’m not pushing for Pierce, but this is the highlights of his resume: As a player: Washington Redskins (2001–2004) New York Giants (2005–2009) As a coach: Long Beach Poly HS (CA) (2014–2017) Head coach Arizona State (2018–2019) Linebackers coach/recruiting coordinator Arizona State (2020) Associate head coach/co-defensive coordinator/linebackers coach/recruiting coordinator Arizona State (2021) Associate head coach/defensive coordinator/recruiting coordinator Las Vegas Raiders (2022–2023) Linebackers coach Las Vegas Raiders (2023–present) Interim head coach So, 9 years as an actual NFL player, Superbowl winning starter, that means something to me. He’s been a Head Coach previously, though at a much lower level. Associate head coach twice. He’s currently interim head coach. For the job of Head Coach he’s more experienced. As an NFL position coach he’s less experienced. I put some sway in his NFL career too as he’s been in and around the leadership. Can you see how saying Johnson has X years of experience is kinda misleading for this role? Sure, he’s been a TE coach and WR coach and if he was going for a coordinator role then absolutely I’d agree. Im not advocating for Pierce but he’s the only one of those four whose actually dove the role. My vote is still for Harbaugh. I do think that being an assistant WR coach, passing game coordinator, and offensive assistant really help. Why? Because when you work your way up from the lowest levels of a coaching staff you understand the grind that it takes to be successful. I also think it gives a coach a great understanding of how to manage day to day operations, their staff, and get the most out of everyone involved with the team. Being a great NFL coach is really about building a good staff and putting them in a position to succeed. Most head coaches are too involved in macro-management of the team to really control all day to day operations. So having a head coach that understands what it takes to be successful on every level of the staff means something to me because you can bet that they'll be able to identify good assistants and put them in a position to succeed so they can focus on managing everything else. I also think that there's a ton of value in being on various staffs in any capacity for years because it allows a coach to build relationships with guys around the league. Which goes back to being able to assemble a good staff that the coach can lean on. A head coach can have confidence in identifying and hiring assistants that he has worked with on a day to day basis. Because they'll understand his vision for the team and will know what the expectations are for day to day operations. I'd have a lot more confidence in a guy like Smith or Johnson, who have been around the coaching ranks for over a decade to build a good staff then I would with AP. A guy that retired 14 years ago and has only been coaching in the NFL for 2 years on arguably the worst staff in the league full of Patriot way coaches that were hand picked by Josh McDaniels. Playing experience typically doesn't really translate to being a good head coach. And that's the reason why there are only three former players turned head coaches in NFL history that have went on to win a Super Bowl. And it has only happened once in the last three decades with Tony Dungey and the Colts. So again with AP, if you're banking on him being successful you're really expecting him to do a number of things that we've rarely ever seen any coach in the league do. Including being the only interim coach in 2 decades to keep his job and win 2+ playoff games, being only the second former player turned head coach in 3 decades to win a Super Bowl, and being one of the least experienced head coaches in NFL history. (In terms of NFL coaching experience) Personally, AP just hasn't shown me enough to think that he can be historically good in comparison to his peers that have faced similar circumstances. If you think he can break trends that we've seen for decades and go on a historically great run based on what he has shown, we must not be watching the same games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, NYRaider said: I do think that being an assistant WR coach, passing game coordinator, and offensive assistant really help. Why? Because when you work your way up from the lowest levels of a coaching staff you understand the grind that it takes to be successful. I also think it gives a coach a great understanding of how to manage day to day operations, their staff, and get the most out of everyone involved with the team. Being a great NFL coach is really about building a good staff and putting them in a position to succeed. Most head coaches are too involved in macro-management of the team to really control all day to day operations. So having a head coach that understands what it takes to be successful on every level of the staff means something to me because you can bet that they'll be able to identify good assistants and put them in a position to succeed so they can focus on managing everything else. I also think that there's a ton of value in being on various staffs in any capacity for years because it allows a coach to build relationships with guys around the league. Which goes back to being able to assemble a good staff that the coach can lean on. A head coach can have confidence in identifying and hiring assistants that he has worked with on a day to day basis. Because they'll understand his vision for the team and will know what the expectations are for day to day operations. I'd have a lot more confidence in a guy like Smith or Johnson, who have been around the coaching ranks for over a decade to build a good staff then I would with AP. A guy that retired 14 years ago and has only been coaching in the NFL for 2 years on arguably the worst staff in the league full of Patriot way coaches that were hand picked by Josh McDaniels. Playing experience typically doesn't really translate to being a good head coach. And that's the reason why there are only three former players turned head coaches in NFL history that have went on to win a Super Bowl. And it has only happened once in the last three decades with Tony Dungey and the Colts. So again with AP, if you're banking on him being successful you're really expecting him to do a number of things that we've rarely ever seen any coach in the league do. Including being the only interim coach in 2 decades to keep his job and win 2+ playoff games, being only the second former player turned head coach in 3 decades to win a Super Bowl, and being one of the least experienced head coaches in NFL history. (In terms of NFL coaching experience) Personally, AP just hasn't shown me enough to think that he can be historically good in comparison to his peers that have faced similar circumstances. If you think he can break trends that we've seen for decades and go on a historically great run based on what he has shown, we must not be watching the same games. You make some good points, I don’t disagree with a lot of that. We probably disagree that I think Pierce will be a good coach in time, personally I think it’s too soon for him with the Raiders right now and I worry that he’d need an OC to be very hands on and play a big role and I wonder just who that would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 24 minutes ago, Darbsk said: You make some good points, I don’t disagree with a lot of that. We probably disagree that I think Pierce will be a good coach in time, personally I think it’s too soon for him with the Raiders right now and I worry that he’d need an OC to be very hands on and play a big role and I wonder just who that would be. If AP wasn't promoted to interim HC no one would be talking about him or even considering him as a future head coaching candidate. And I'm sure the only reason Mark promoted him instead of Graham was so that PG could keep his focus on the defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackinBlack Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 2 hours ago, big_palooka said: How people can watch the Rams game last night and see what a good HC looks like and say, I want AP as my coach is baffling to me. McVey is the standard you should want to find in a coach. The Rams are consistently terrific. Their system is elite. They traded high picks to win a Super Bowl and are still competitive because of elite level drafting and coaching. I find it so insane that people could look at AP and think, this is the guy who can compete at that type level. The Raiders have been so bad for so long, people are willing to settle for good enough. Ahhh here we go. Hopefully a way to find common ground here. again look at the rams… they hired Les Snead.. gave him time to find his coach. we need to hire a gm before we give a coach some massive contract. raiders keep trying to hire both at the same time. It’s not working. hire a gm. And tell him, if AP doesn’t work out he’s on a 1 year extension and he’ll have control. (this assuming we go at least 2-1 to end and compete in all 3). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 32 minutes ago, BackinBlack said: Ahhh here we go. Hopefully a way to find common ground here. again look at the rams… they hired Les Snead.. gave him time to find his coach. we need to hire a gm before we give a coach some massive contract. raiders keep trying to hire both at the same time. It’s not working. hire a gm. And tell him, if AP doesn’t work out he’s on a 1 year extension and he’ll have control. (this assuming we go at least 2-1 to end and compete in all 3). We've only went through the traditional hiring practice once with Dennis Allen. The tricky part is that we currently don't have a GM so we basically have to hire a GM/HC at the same time unless Kelly is going to remain in charge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackinBlack Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, NYRaider said: We've only went through the traditional hiring practice once with Dennis Allen. The tricky part is that we currently don't have a GM so we basically have to hire a GM/HC at the same time unless Kelly is going to remain in charge. Yeah it’s not ideal, and Imo, it’s time to start and focus on the GM. I think a gm will want a season to sort out the team, having a players coach could actually be good for the gm to see what the players are like and what not. the gm gets a year to learn the players, Scouts, coaching staff etc etc. the players get 1 year to prove that ap is their guy. again, this still dependent on how AP ends the season. But I don’t want our gm and coach to be tied together anymore. I want them to disagree on things but end of day everyone knows it is gms call. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 2 hours ago, BackinBlack said: Yeah it’s not ideal, and Imo, it’s time to start and focus on the GM. I think a gm will want a season to sort out the team, having a players coach could actually be good for the gm to see what the players are like and what not. the gm gets a year to learn the players, Scouts, coaching staff etc etc. the players get 1 year to prove that ap is their guy. again, this still dependent on how AP ends the season. But I don’t want our gm and coach to be tied together anymore. I want them to disagree on things but end of day everyone knows it is gms call. I doubt that any high end GM candidate is going to take the job if they have to keep AP and can't hire their own candidate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackinBlack Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 11 hours ago, NYRaider said: I doubt that any high end GM candidate is going to take the job if they have to keep AP and can't hire their own candidate. Yeah very possible… do gms typical bring in their own guy year 1? I think bringing both hc / gm the same year has been part of our problem. mark needs to focus solely on the gm process first imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 I'll simplify my stance on this. I prefer and offensive HC. The teams #1 position of need is QB. That's the most important position on the field. I want an offensive minded OC and staff to develop my potential rookie QB. The best play callers in the game are made HCs, that's how you get them. I'd rather hire the right offensive guy vs. relying on a defensive minded coach to nail the offensive staff. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 2 hours ago, BackinBlack said: Yeah very possible… do gms typical bring in their own guy year 1? I think bringing both hc / gm the same year has been part of our problem. mark needs to focus solely on the gm process first imo. Yes GM's almost always bring in their own head coach. NFL means Not For Long, I mean Ziegler got canned after 1.5 years here. I just don't see any GM candidate betting on AP instead of hiring their own guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 1 hour ago, big_palooka said: I'll simplify my stance on this. I prefer and offensive HC. The teams #1 position of need is QB. That's the most important position on the field. I want an offensive minded OC and staff to develop my potential rookie QB. The best play callers in the game are made HCs, that's how you get them. I'd rather hire the right offensive guy vs. relying on a defensive minded coach to nail the offensive staff. Agreed. Give me an offensive minded coach that has proven he can field an elite unit over a LB coach that was responsible for the worst LB group in the NFL just a year ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitty 2.0 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 19 hours ago, NYRaider said: You genuinely think 9 games as an interim coach prepares you more for the rigors of being an NFL head coach than a decade of being a coach at every level within a staff and seeing the day to day grind that every staff member has to go through for a team to be successful? The team is playing hard. He can always hire a good OC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 31 minutes ago, Bitty 2.0 said: The team is playing hard. He can always hire a good OC. The team was playing hard under JMD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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