2023 Week 11 GDT 6-3 Steelers Visit 6-3 Browns

[warfelg]

7 hours ago, JustPlainNasty said:

I think the only thing that is true is that ownership has a concept that they are regulated by that has been tried and true for them, that both Art Rooney Sr believed in, combined with what worked with Chuck Noll, and they use that as their guiding force/light. 

It has to do with family, community involvement, staying true to the roots of  Pittsburgh, toughness, playing defense and being able to run the football, and there is a value placed on loyalty which goes back to family.

Thats what I feel/believe is the extent of the Rooney's guidance. They have their annual meeting about the state of the franchise and it is suggested about what needs to happen to be like that or stay like that. The one time I know that was obvious was when they/Art suggested that they do whatever they needed to get the running game back on track. So they went out of their way to trip over themselves get some semblance of a run game back and they drafted Najee Harris. 

That's very true under Art Sr and Dan, I don't get that sense with ARII.  During the draft Art Sr and Dan were just there as counsel, someone to bounce idea's off of; ARII has publicly said he's a tie breaker for disagreements.

I'll give you an interesting one, Bruce Arians has said that Tomlin tried to get him a new contract at the time he was fired/retired:

Quote

"(Tomlin) said, 'I can't get you the money,'" Arians told Kremer. "I said, 'OK.' He said, 'No, I can't get you a contract.' I said, 'Are you firing me?' He said, 'No.' Well, it's just a matter of words, Mike, OK. If I don't have a contract, I'm fired.'"

Now it get's painted as Tomlin wanted to fire Arians, but why would he have gone to the Rooney's to get that contract?  Just interesting.

Another article that points to what I'm suspecting that ARII is much more involved than most think:

https://steelersdepot.com/2021/04/tomlin-on-draft-day-decision-makers-mr-rooney-is-the-boss/

(Interesting and noted in that article - Tomlin calls ARII "Mr Rooney" and Colbert called him "Art")

What's interesting is you point out to the one time ARII was super obvious about guiding the direction of the team with the run game comments.  What followed, IMO, was a very Jerry Jones like sequence of events.  Went for the skill player instead of looking at the actual issue that the OL was aging and wasn't as good at it.

No one is in the organization to say it's true 100% but there's a lot of articles out there about how there's suspicion that ARII is much more involved than we or anyone think.

7 hours ago, JustPlainNasty said:

He would've been crazy/dumb not to keep **** Lebeau. 

Who Tomlin?  I think Lebeau staying as DC when Cowher retired was one of those non-negotiables that was a stipulation of taking the job.  Lebeau was first promoted under Cowher with Dan as owner, then re-hired after a terrible HC stint with Dan as owner and Cower as coach.

I posted on the history of the Coordinator positions since 83/84 because, well hiring from within isn't just a Tomlin thing.  It's a Steelers thing. 

Sure all 3 head coaches came from other teams (Noll was the Baltimore Colts DC, Cower the KC Chiefs DC, and Tomin the Vikings DC), but when over a combined 80 seasons of two coaching positions 23 of them were done by coaches that were not previously with the team.

I don't believe that Tomlin has no power and say in these things, but organizational history reflects a pattern of preferring to staying inside the organization and not firing anyone before their contract is up.  I believe (and it's been documented) that The Chief treated the Steelers like you were family, you take care of them, have an open door, and listen.  Dan was a little more corporate in that not anyone could just walk into his office, but he still treated it like a family and took care of his own, evident by his relationship with the players.  Rumor with ARII is he doesn't really interact with the players, limited partners can't just show up to talk with him, and everything is on a schedule.  Because of ARII's ways with that I feel like he's more structured in the whole hiring/letting go process and you must stick with that.

I posted what I originally did because I was curious and went back and looked at press releases on many of the coaching hires, and in a lot of them Tomlin was saying "We decided" and things like that (even the very contentious Haley hiring he said that).  But on The Pivot podcast when he talked about Flores, that's one of the only times I heard him ever say he walked into Rooney's office and said "I want to hire him".  I did that because I was trying to look for any pattern in how we showed that someone was going to be let go (I'm autistic, it's what we do looking for patterns).

It's all a very long way of staying - I think Canada is going to end up gone at the end of the season, but letting him go right now is not something Tomlin 100% has the authority to do, and it's precedent in the Steelers history to do this.

Edited November 21, 2023 by warfelg

[warfelg]

I'll just ask this:

At the end of the day ARII owns the team, he can overrule anyone he wants, he knows it's so bad, why doesn't he overrule everyone else and just fire Canada himself?

[warfelg]

And here I am, yet again, stuck "defending" Tomlin and "bashing" ARII not because of what I actually said, but because of the words others put in my mouth.

[warfelg]

Hmmm....Charlie Batch who knows a thing or two:

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On 102.5 WDVE's postgame show, Charlie Batch answered fans' questions and received one of why Tomlin won't fire his coaches. While no one wanted to hear his answer, it seems that the fans' worst fears are being realized. 

"If you've ever been around the Rooney family, they're not going to fire a guy and let him collect a check"

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/charlie_batch_calls_steelers_art_rooney_ii_cheap_revealing_the_team_wont_fire_matt_canada_and_pay_him_for_nothing/s1_17101_39560835

 

Kinda reminds me of the NFLPA where players report cards rated the Steelers low:

https://nflpa.com/pittsburgh-steelers-report-card

Direct quote from that in depth report:

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Only 44% of players who responded feel like Steelers owner Art Rooney II is willing to invest money into upgrading their facilities, ranking him tied for 29th in this category.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by warfelg

[warfelg]

https://steelersdepot.com/2020/01/decision-to-hire-canada-as-qb-coach-reportedly-came-from-rooney-additional-hires-still-possible/

Canada was Rooney's hire, not Tomlin's.

[jebrick]

AR2 was/is a lawyer.  Dan and Art Sr. were football executives before they were owners.  There is a difference.

[Dcash4]

47 minutes ago, warfelg said:

https://steelersdepot.com/2020/01/decision-to-hire-canada-as-qb-coach-reportedly-came-from-rooney-additional-hires-still-possible/

Canada was Rooney's hire, not Tomlin's.

Find and read the full quote where he says “Mike and I”.

Find Dulac’s article where he said it was Rooneys decision to get a QB coach, he does not specify Canada. 

And there is literally a quote from Rooney in that article about potentially hiring more coaches and he defers that question to a Tomlin. 

You are not stuck defending Tomlin. You choose to do it. 

[JustPlainNasty]

Its like your making two different points in a long winded way. I agree that the Rooneys dont just hire/fire people. Its not about Mike not having ability to hire or fire people he wants. Its about this bed was made, were gonna lay in it. No hasty decisions etc. Part of it has to do with not just throwing money around, despite all the Steelers popularity they are nowhere near as wealthy nor have revenue similar to many of the big city franchises or owners. They are about mid pack and for years they were similar to the Bengals type revenue in the 80s. They had to make money the old fashioned way "they earned it" through a slow climb in football. 

Bruce Arians was not a "great" coordinator for the Steelers and Ben hardly grew under his tenure. It was a lot more of a chuck and duck offense than it was anything sophisticated. Ben never really even learned how to throw hot routes, read blitzes and had no discipline in not holding onto the ball and getting sacked/hit more than any QB in the game, the stat may have been in the history of the game during that run up to that point in his career.  They can bs and say its not true or thats ridiculous but it didn't show on the field. (Its always funny how the national media mostly glosses over how badly they used to critique and ridicule Ben in those days. They still say it though sometimes with comments like "is he a hall of famer?" etc.)  The Rooney's made the investment in Ben the likes of which the franchise had never even come close to and they wisely wanted to protect it for the long haul. That was an easy decision imo. The town hated Arians as well, but of course they dont really like any of them while they are here. Theres a lot more I could go on about as Arians as an OC here.  IMO the Rooneys wanted Arians out to protect Ben and Tomlin used the money as an excuse or way of putting it that he had to do something different to keep ownership happy and not concerned about their primary investment which wasn't growing and was getting killed. 

This simple article by Steelers Depot reiterates what Im saying. https://steelersdepot.com/2022/10/ben-roethlisberger-is-no-longer-the-most-sacked-qb-in-nfl-history/

 

Article/Chart of franchise earnings & financials from 2023

https://www.forbes.com/lists/nfl-valuations/?sh=77d87e161738

[warfelg]

6 minutes ago, JustPlainNasty said:

Its like your making two different points in a long winded way. I agree that the Rooneys dont just hire/fire people. Its not about Mike not having ability to hire or fire people he wants. Its about this bed was made, were gonna lay in it. No hasty decisions etc. Part of it has to do with not just throwing money around, despite all the Steelers popularity they are nowhere near as wealthy nor have revenue similar to many of the big city franchises or owners. They are about mid pack and for years they were similar to the Bengals type revenue in the 80s. They had to make money the old fashioned way "they earned it" through a slow climb in football. 

Yes. Yes yes yes on the bolded.

Quote

 IMO the Rooneys wanted Arians out to protect Ben and Tomlin used the money as an excuse or way of putting it that he had to do something different to keep ownership happy and not concerned about their primary investment which wasn't growing and was getting killed. 

To expand on your thought of the Rooney's wanting Tomlin out, if that's your feeling and they used Tomlin, IMO that's even more damning of ARII because he's making someone else do the dirty work for them.

As @jebrick pointed to ARII's a lawyer and that feels like a very lawyer thing to do to have a layer between him an the issue.

Edited November 21, 2023 by warfelg