GDT WEEK 12 -MNF @Vikings

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

8 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

C’mon now. In what way has Bagent played as well or better than Fields?

He beat a (then) checked out Raiders team throwing for 162 yards (meh), and beat the worst team in football while leading the team to just 16 points and where our only TD drive was just 38 yards (yuck). In the other two games, both also against teams currently out of the playoffs, he turned the ball over a combined six times and we scored a combined 30 points, with 7 of those coming in 4th quarter garbage time when we were already 4 scores behind. Bagent’s TD:INT ratio is 1:2 (Fields’ is 2:1). Bagent’s QB rating is 71.4 (Fields 92.3). Bagent’s passing TD frequency is 2.1% (Fields 5.4%), and his INT frequency is 4.2% (Fields 2.7%). In games the same guy started and finished (which excludes the first MIN game where both guys played about half the game), Fields’ starts have yielded 21.85 ppg (would be 15th in the league). Bagent’s yielded just 19.0 ppg (25th), and only 17.5 ppg if you exclude the defensive score in the Raiders game.

I could see making the point that Bagent plays the offensive style better?  The game plan vs Min might have worked just as well with Bagent over Fields, although he probably doesn't get the rushing or the nice strike to Moore, but perhaps he gets more out of the screens.  

If you're ranking QBs I don't think many put Bagent over Fields, but I'm honestly not sure Getsy wouldn't be one of the few.  Despite the production they've gotten in a handful of games with Fields where they play to his strengths, it's always felt like the goal was the kind of gameplan you'd call with Tom Brady behind a poor OL; quick shots outside complimenting a strong run game, and (someday? Eventually?) using that to setup deep shots.  And I really don't think Getsy is a good OC but he has gotten a lot out of the run game.  Lets send him to the Titans for 3 first round picks. 

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW said:

I could see making the point that Bagent plays the offensive style better?  The game plan vs Min might have worked just as well with Bagent over Fields, although he probably doesn't get the rushing or the nice strike to Moore, but perhaps he gets more out of the screens.  

If you're ranking QBs I don't think many put Bagent over Fields, but I'm honestly not sure Getsy wouldn't be one of the few.  Despite the production they've gotten in a handful of games with Fields where they play to his strengths, it's always felt like the goal was the kind of gameplan you'd call with Tom Brady behind a poor OL; quick shots outside complimenting a strong run game, and (someday? Eventually?) using that to setup deep shots.  And I really don't think Getsy is a good OC but he has gotten a lot out of the run game.  Lets send him to the Titans for 3 first round picks. 

@AZBearsFan

Yes Fields is better, but he should be.  He is more talented and he is in 3rd year and 2nd year in system and he had starter reps all year.  Bagent had to basically watch all spring and summer as the 4th QB and that was after the draft.  CJ Stroud despite being starter since draft lost to Carolina.   He doesn't lose to them if they play today.   

You can nitpick stats, but it is a style of play.   Bagent throws the ball on 3rd down.  Ball comes out of his hand.  Getsy calls game different.

I am not sure if Bagent got all reps all offseason until now we aren't moving ball better.   Fields isn't playing NFL QB well and he has a fumbling problem. 

You can blame Getsy, but Fields simply isn't crossing goal line enough and a number of games he has really struggled to convert on 3rd down.  When he does it seems it is more likely to happen with his legs than with his arm.

Fields also played really bad teams and just played a back up QB who had 4 turnovers and we scored 3 pts off them.  Our schedule has been mostly cake.

Fields is running out of excuses.  He has to play better.  

 

 

[Madmike90]

18 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

 

Fields is running out of excuses.  He has to play better.  

 

 

[SLCbear]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:32 AM, Madmike90 said:

 

Fix the center spot and this OL will be a strong point.

Braxton is what keeps me off the 2 Tackles in upcoming draft and focused on MHj and Bowers, there are no worthy DL in top 5(7) either

[SLCbear]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:47 AM, Sugashane said:

Was Walker's pressures more from EDGE or 3T? I genuinely don't have a clue. 

(Hoping at EDGE since here is young talent at DT)

he is a hybrid, reminds me alot of pernell mcphee

[SLCbear]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:55 AM, Madmike90 said:

 

It's think sort of stuff that is so frustrating with Fields...these are great numbers against the blitz of a really tough D...but still the mistakes nearly cost us the game and we only scored 12 points.

he overcame the HUGE mistakes and won the game, which is ONLy positive from this gross game. JF needed a W and ultimately made it happen 

[SLCbear]

3 hours ago, BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW said:

I'm honestly not sure Getsy wouldn't be one of the few.  

quick shots outside complimenting a strong run game, and (someday? Eventually?) using that to setup deep shots.  And I really don't think Getsy is a good OC but he has gotten a lot out of the run game.  Lets send him to the Titans for 3 first round picks. 

Getsy is  an IDIOT. 

 We all know that this is the winning formula for JF  ! power football, dominating run and screen game to set up DEEP shots all throughout game 

 I think Getsy is doing way TOO MUCh  ! overthinking overcomplicating, running schemes off of schemes,  trying to show his genius  which is counterintuitive for JF

 get him outta here NOW⚱️

[SLCbear]

Real question, bc I thought I knew.

What % of responsibility for offensive formations and execution is determined by Getsy alone ?? I know Flus is HC but he is also DC, and calling everything there.  wht is the  % of responsibility for how guys line up and execute plays on offense ?? POOR scheme and execution is what has killed this team.  It was happening on both sides of the ball to start the season which is DEFINITELY 💯 on Flus, but the D has come around.

 Is it possible that flus is 100% hands-off for O and playcalling ?? I would have never imagined such a possibility but reading into what Flus is saying about wanting more chunk plays, maybe Getsy is 100% running offense ??!! 

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

3 hours ago, dll2000 said:

@AZBearsFan

Yes Fields is better, but he should be.  He is more talented and he is in 3rd year and 2nd year in system and he had starter reps all year.  Bagent had to basically watch all spring and summer as the 4th QB and that was after the draft.  CJ Stroud despite being starter since draft lost to Carolina.   He doesn't lose to them if they play today.   

You can nitpick stats, but it is a style of play.   Bagent throws the ball on 3rd down.  Ball comes out of his hand.  Getsy calls game different.

I am not sure if Bagent got all reps all offseason until now we aren't moving ball better.   Fields isn't playing NFL QB well and he has a fumbling problem. 

You can blame Getsy, but Fields simply isn't crossing goal line enough and a number of games he has really struggled to convert on 3rd down.  When he does it seems it is more likely to happen with his legs than with his arm.

Fields also played really bad teams and just played a back up QB who had 4 turnovers and we scored 3 pts off them.  Our schedule has been mostly cake.

Fields is running out of excuses.  He has to play better.  

 

 

Well if you're a Fields booster (I don't think I am but it might sound like that) you've got a built in excuse with Getsy seeming to want no part of Fields.  This is a problem as from an outside perspective at least, the Bears aren't getting the fullest eval on Fields before they make a decision.  It's fair to wonder if Getsy and Flus aren't coaching for their jobs, trying to avoid embarassing losses and maybe eke some wins with a soft schedule, while if you're looking at the sky high view I think you're caring less about bearing the Cardinals or the Panthers and more about testing what the players and staff can do.

Fields ain't a finished product, but attempting to turn him into Bagent isn't going to finish him.   With Fields' abilities (mobile, accurate deep shot) come drawbacks (gets hurt, holds ball until quarter six) but instead of finding ways to utlize the good and minimize the bad they just deleted as much of the risk from their plan for him. I get it, but it is making their decisions murkier, and no matter what we're essentially guaranteeing that any perspective on this team is possibly correct so you can justify saying Fields limited Getsy or Getsy handcuffed Fields and not be totally wrong. 

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, SLCbear said:

he is a hybrid, reminds me alot of pernell mcphee

Gotcha. I was just asking because he was pretty ineffective as a passrusher off the EDGE but did well at 3T in TEN. Wasn't sure if he improved at EDGE or it was the same story.

[dll2000]

17 minutes ago, BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW said:

Well if you're a Fields booster (I don't think I am but it might sound like that) you've got a built in excuse with Getsy seeming to want no part of Fields.  This is a problem as from an outside perspective at least, the Bears aren't getting the fullest eval on Fields before they make a decision.  It's fair to wonder if Getsy and Flus aren't coaching for their jobs, trying to avoid embarassing losses and maybe eke some wins with a soft schedule, while if you're looking at the sky high view I think you're caring less about bearing the Cardinals or the Panthers and more about testing what the players and staff can do.

Fields ain't a finished product, but attempting to turn him into Bagent isn't going to finish him.   With Fields' abilities (mobile, accurate deep shot) come drawbacks (gets hurt, holds ball until quarter six) but instead of finding ways to utlize the good and minimize the bad they just deleted as much of the risk from their plan for him. I get it, but it is making their decisions murkier, and no matter what we're essentially guaranteeing that any perspective on this team is possibly correct so you can justify saying Fields limited Getsy or Getsy handcuffed Fields and not be totally wrong. 

Fields got screwed by Bears no question.

If he doesn't make it as an NFL QB it is primarily an institutional failure and not a Fields failure IMO.   Which I have said from time he was drafted.  

1) Nagy lame duck year with Dalton as QB1.  Terrible Oline. 

2) Tank year.  Ran him too much.  

3) One year to prove it.  Took awhile to get oline settled.  Questionable game plans.  Got hurt.

But it doesn't change fact that we are now looking at a likely top 2 pick in draft.   Those don't come up often. 

You can have a way better draft keeping Fields.  You can add likely 2 elite players plus at least an extra 1 next year.  That isn't nothing.  

But if you pass on a top draft QB and he turns out to be a stud and Fields never pans out you will always regret it.

Right now it is a fairly tough call and is debatable.  By end of season it probably won't be as tough.  

 

[AZBearsFan]

11 hours ago, dll2000 said:

@AZBearsFan

Yes Fields is better, but he should be.  He is more talented and he is in 3rd year and 2nd year in system and he had starter reps all year.  Bagent had to basically watch all spring and summer as the 4th QB and that was after the draft.  CJ Stroud despite being starter since draft lost to Carolina.   He doesn't lose to them if they play today.   

You can nitpick stats, but it is a style of play.   Bagent throws the ball on 3rd down.  Ball comes out of his hand.  Getsy calls game different.

I am not sure if Bagent got all reps all offseason until now we aren't moving ball better.   Fields isn't playing NFL QB well and he has a fumbling problem. 

You can blame Getsy, but Fields simply isn't crossing goal line enough and a number of games he has really struggled to convert on 3rd down.  When he does it seems it is more likely to happen with his legs than with his arm.

Fields also played really bad teams and just played a back up QB who had 4 turnovers and we scored 3 pts off them.  Our schedule has been mostly cake.

Fields is running out of excuses.  He has to play better.  

 

 

It’s not nitpicking stats when it’s all the stats. The ball coming out of Bagent’s hand faster doesn’t mean he’s playing better. The team scores less points when he’s the QB and he is less efficient than Fields by basically every single measure that matters (unless you think time to throw is more important than scoring efficiency and turnover frequency). Whether Bagent got less reps over the summer is irrelevant to your original point that Bagent is playing as well or better than Fields. He just isn’t, whether you think what Fields is doing is good enough or not. 

[dll2000]

10 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

It’s not nitpicking stats when it’s all the stats. The ball coming out of Bagent’s hand faster doesn’t mean he’s playing better. The team scores less points when he’s the QB and he is less efficient than Fields by basically every single measure that matters (unless you think time to throw is more important than scoring efficiency and turnover frequency). Whether Bagent got less reps over the summer is irrelevant to your original point that Bagent is playing as well or better than Fields. He just isn’t, whether you think what Fields is doing is good enough or not. 

Fine.  Fields is better than Bagent.  But greater point is team end results aren’t significantly better despite every advantage.  

My thought wasn’t really about Fields vs Bagent.  It’s more Fields is underachieving for what he is capable.

[AZBearsFan]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

Fine.  Fields is better than Bagent.  But greater point is team end results aren’t significantly better despite every advantage.  

My thought wasn’t really about Fields vs Bagent.  It’s more Fields is underachieving for what he is capable.

Fair enough. The $100M+ question is, how much of that underachievement (which I prefer to term as underdevelopment) is because he is being / has been held back by coaching? We’ll probably never know until at which point the relevant decisions about his future have already been made, which is a disservice to both Fields himself and all of us as fans of the team. 

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

12 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Fair enough. The $100M+ question is, how much of that underachievement (which I prefer to term as underdevelopment) is because he is being / has been held back by coaching? We’ll probably never know until at which point the relevant decisions about his future have already been made, which is a disservice to both Fields himself and all of us as fans of the team. 

Preach. And the point that I think you're making, is not just that George is dumb, or this is bad, it's that looking forward it's very easy to picture the same kind of thing happening again with mismatched staffs and QBs. If this era is remembered for anything I sincerely hope it's the building of a future dynasty, and not yet another object lesson by the Bears and how to waste time and screw up players.