2023 Week #14 TNF Steelers 7-5 Host Patriots 2-10

[rlon]

4 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

rlon, I certainly respect your opinion and insight on a lot of subjects, but I disagree with you here.  Many others may agree with you, especially right now. I understand many have grown tired of Coach Tomlin and many don't like him.  However, his win/loss record, longevity, and what he has overcome, done, accomplished as a HC etc., is Hall of Fame worthy. 

I try to be objective despite my personal opinions on many subjects, players, performances, etc. I give some constructive criticism of Coach Tomlin in the Steelers/Cardinals GDT regarding losing to lesser talent consistently and his addressing that. No coach is without criticism, weakness, and holes in their game.  everyone talks about Kyle Shanahan like he is the GOAT of offensive football. Yet he was the laughing stock of the NFL after blowing a 24-3 lead in the SB against Belichick and he was just an OC not HC.

Both Tomlin and Belichick are HOF coaches. It may be like comparing Mel Blount to Deion Prime Time Sanders as the greatest CB of all time. Belichick is arguably the GOAT of coaches. Belichick has surpassed (in many people's minds) Lombardi, Shula, Walsh, Papa Bear Halas, Noll, Laundry, and Madden.

Mike Tomlin has not only done some good things coaching, but some great things as well. A lot of things are based on perception and favoritism. While the Steelers are not performing where most of us want and have not for the past several years, that does not take away from what has been accomplished or his legacy.

I also try not to do some of these things when I am disappointed or fed up with someone or something.  Dionte Johnson is certainly not my favorite Steelers player right now. I thought his TD celebration was uncalled for and inappropriate based on the circumstance of the game (being down 24-3 and getting spanked all afternoon to a 2-10 team).  He caught a freaking three yard TD.

However, the Steelers still need him to win. He didn't technically do anything wrong, but it is something that as a position coach or HC, I would have said something to him privately. I was not ready to cut him because it wasn't the best thing for the team and I won't trash him for his decision, despite the fact that I think it made him look like an out of touch player.

Many may be tired of Coach Tomlin and believe it is time to move on. Objectively, they may be right. Although, I don't necessarily think he is the root cause of the Steelers issues. However, what guys like Tomlin, Reid, and Harbaugh have done are Hall of Fame worthy in my book. They have not had the success of Belichick, but it doesn't take away from these being some of the best (what I will term) ole' guard NFL coaches.

Without the Super Bowl victory, and even in getting to a second one, arguably the victory with all of Cowher’s core and the loss with some remnants, he has dramatically underachieved in the post season…with a lot of talent. That is why he is overrated imo, but why we need to move on now is simply the staleness of his message. It is time for a fresh start. I don’t think we should fail to attempt to profit from the fact that he is so overrated, however. If it is in fact true that so many teams would want him, bartering works for me during the transition into a new phase for the organization. I do, however, agree that timing is bad in terms of adding a new coach from the perspective of how many organizations will be doing the same in 2024 and how that will impact the choice/quality of our options. So, I can just talk about moving on from Tomlin, or I can finally say that this organization is f-ed. Let me know what you prefer , the season has drained me.

 

[3rivers]

1 minute ago, rlon said:

Without the Super Bowl victory, and even in getting to a second one, arguably the victory with all of Cowher’s core and the loss with some remnants, he has dramatically underachieved in the post season…with a lot of talent. That is why he is overrated imo, but why we need to move on now is simply the staleness of his message. It is time for a fresh start. I don’t think we should fail to attempt to profit from the fact that he is so overrated, however. If it is in fact true that so many teams would want him, bartering works for me during the transition into a new phase for the organization. I do, however, agree that timing is bad in terms of adding a new coach from the perspective of how many organizations will be doing the same in 2024 and how that will impact the choice/quality of our options. So, I can just talk about moving on from Tomlin, or I can finally say that this organization is f-ed. Let me know what you prefer , the season has drained me.

 

once tomlins culture set in and took over the team, they couldn't beat a playoff team in the playoffs.   Even with Munchak's OL and Killer B's - zilch. 

as for a new coach,  they would have to have a list of candidates and go from there. Considering how the steelers don't fire HC's and they appear to have job security, they would actually have the upper hand in that regard. 

this team will remain is it has for the lest decade.  Mr.>.500 and catch phrases until he retires.  

[rlon]

Question,,,am I the only one excited to see Warren as the bell cow against the Patriots if Najee can’t suit up? I don’t mean that as a current knock against Najee, as I think he stepped up his game recently. I am just curious if the offense would look more dynamic with Warren as the every down back through the gross majority of the game…

[3rivers]

2 minutes ago, rlon said:

Question,,,am I the only one excited to see Warren as the bell cow against the Patriots if Najee can’t suit up? I don’t mean that as a current knock against Najee, as I think he stepped up his game recently. I am just curious if the offense would look more dynamic with Warren as the every down back through the gross majority of the game…

actually I am looking forward to this but also Bmac getting his chance . I thought he was good in limited chances, but has missed much of this year due to injury.  Najee has knee, should let it heal, no point making it worse. This game should be won with some players out, let those players heal. 

 explosive passing game with bombs to GP and dynamic duo with speed at RB. The new 23 steelers, in another game that could very well end like last week minus a few TD's for the  opposition. 

I think we win 6-5  

 

 

 

[warfelg]

https://x.com/steelersdepot/status/1732543341362110719?s=46&t=xd5QJpZuXv2k7qD0xqd6aA

[Dcash4]

And the offensive lineman that ranks in the top 10 of pass block win rate is on the bench for the rest of his life. 

[3rivers]

39 minutes ago, warfelg said:

https://x.com/steelersdepot/status/1732543341362110719?s=46&t=xd5QJpZuXv2k7qD0xqd6aA

we saw what 1 change and better OL can make with Jones. Maybe we will see this again with cole on the sidelines, maybe not.  We might have 2 of the starters from the beginning of the season starting this week, the rest are reserves or rookie(s) 

[3rivers]

4 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

And the offensive lineman that ranks in the top 10 of pass block win rate is on the bench for the rest of his life. 

who is that and where did you find this out?

[Dcash4]

18 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

who is that and where did you find this out?

Chuks is 10th 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams

 

[3rivers]

12 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Chuks is 10th 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams

 

time to question the legitimacy of the people in charge of these stats. No way he is 10th especially when we consider Jones has been an improvement.  OUt of 64+ OT chuks can't be near 10.  These people that make up these stats have some flaws . 

doesn't mater, chuks better get traded and this should add to his trade value  

[jebrick]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

https://x.com/steelersdepot/status/1732543341362110719?s=46&t=xd5QJpZuXv2k7qD0xqd6aA

[warfelg]

45 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Chuks is 10th 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams

 

I find this stuff really interesting.

Like, he’s also got the T5th most double team help from the players ESPN has listed in that.  He’s got the 3rd least number of attempts.  According to PFF he’s played 429 snaps this year, with 170 drop backs, so he was only dropping back on 39.6% of his snaps.  PFF has him graded at 62.6, so either ESPN is overvaluing his pass blocking, PFF is undervaluing his pass blocking, or his run blocking was just that bad.

Overall ESPN rates our line as pretty average.  PBWR is 58% which is 12th in the league, and RBWR is 70% which is 15th in the league.

Interesting line they use of a win is considered holding the block for more than 2.5 seconds.  So if a guy were to hold a block for 2.6 seconds but their man ultimately still makes the sack or wins because the ball isn’t out that seems to indicate that the OT won.  Given Kenny’s penchant to roll left when scrambling then it should make sense that the guys on the right can “win” more with that being the line.  

_____________

And interesting one to look at tied to this somewhat, with Bill’s comments that we’re frequently a lesser penalized team and don’t turn it over is the number of penalties by player on the OL (via PFF):

Dan Moore - 1 (T-76th) in 11 starts (5 sacks allowed)

Isaac Seumalo - 1 (T-64th) in 12 starts (0 sacks allowed)

Mason Cole - 2 (T-26th) in 12 starts (2 sacks allowed)

James Daniels - 2 (T-43rd) in 12 starts (0 sacks allowed)

Chucks Okorafor - 7 (T-15th) in 7 starts (2 sacks allowed)

Broderick Jones - 2 (T-58th) in 6 starts (1 sack allowed)

[Steeler Hitman]

18 hours ago, rlon said:

Without the Super Bowl victory, and even in getting to a second one, arguably the victory with all of Cowher’s core and the loss with some remnants, he has dramatically underachieved in the post season…with a lot of talent.

I don't discount this point. Some of this I also put on the health and ego's of Ben, Bell, and Brown. The Killer Bee's did not get to play together for many of those years as one or two of them where always injured. The defenses also left a lot to be desired during that time. It is on Coach Tomlin's watch, but I don't fully blame him for having a hurt Bell, AB, or Ben during some key games. The Cowher thing, is sort of like Gruden and Dungy. I didn't count Tampa Bay's win as a knock on Jon Gruden. I think he is a good coach as Tomlin is. They inherited good situations, but doesn't take away from the fact that they won with what they had.

That is why he is overrated imo, but why we need to move on now is simply the staleness of his message.

I also do not discount this argument. A stale message may only tweaked and not necessarily a new messenger. I think Coach Tomlin needs a progressive offensive mind and could use some mature leadership in terms of Assistant HC (I would love to see Mike Munchack in this role). Today's players are a handful. I would also add some higher character players. The offensive side of the ball has some (what I will term Prima Donna's/divas). The team has lacked this for a long time. They have some guys, but this locker room needs more.

How players can say that they took another NFL team lightly and they are struggling mightily and internally? How do you think it is acceptable to celebrate a blah TD when losing 24-3? Those things are not the coach, but individuals/players.

It is time for a fresh start.

I agree, I think we may disagree with what to do or how to do it. There are things that I don't like and am tired of with Coach Tomlin, but changing the HC doesn't automatically give the proper refresh. The things that Tomlin is good at helps the organization. His opportunities are things that can be helped with enhancing and in some cases upgrading the staff around him.

I don’t think we should fail to attempt to profit from the fact that he is so overrated, however. If it is in fact true that so many teams would want him, bartering works for me during the transition into a new phase for the organization.

I get that people don't like Coach Tomlin, but he has been an NFL Coach for 17 years and produced. It is hard to dismiss what he has accomplished "honestly and objectively" as lucky or being overrated. Just dealing with the players, drams, and egos is monumental.

The other thing is that no one else would want him if he is smoke and mirrors.  I honestly wanted Russ Grimm or Ken Whisenhunt to be hired, but Coach Tomlin was said to be light years ahead of both.    

I do, however, agree that timing is bad in terms of adding a new coach from the perspective of how many organizations will be doing the same in 2024 and how that will impact the choice/quality of our options.

Surround him with staff who can help improve the team where he has opportunities (an offensive guru, assistant HC, and even another fresh mind on the defensive side). The Steelers have one of the smallest coaching staffs.  Get some more good football minds in the building.

So, I can just talk about moving on from Tomlin, or I can finally say that this organization is f-ed. Let me know what you prefer , the season has drained me.

I respect your opinion and right to express it. I just think that many are fed up with Coach T and are at the point of no return. I just like objectivity. I get fed up with this organization and even some of the ways that Coach T deals with the teams issues. I don't think the slash and burn method is necessarily best in terms of fixing what is broken. Even while we are broken, we still want to win. I think that Coach Tomlin still motivates players and gives this team a shot to win.  They are losing because the players are not putting it together. How do you make elite, spoiled, highly paid $$$ athletes perform to their fullest potential? How do you get spoiled fans (I include myself here) to support you? That is any Steelers HC. Mike Tomlin never had a losing season and basks in his mediocrity. Chuck Noll got slack when he started losing. Bill Cowher couldn't win the big one and had the audacity to lose a SB and to the damn Cowboys of all teams.😉

 

 

[3rivers]

is this the end of cole? If this OL plays better  especially inside, will it be enough to keep the new C whoever that is? Sometimes injuries make the changes for the stubborn coaches

[Steeler Hitman]

20 hours ago, 3rivers said:

once tomlins culture set in and took over the team, they couldn't beat a playoff team in the playoffs.   Even with Munchak's OL and Killer B's - zilch. 

I am not trying to change anyone's mind, but again, simply being objective. Not everyone inside the organization has embraced the Steelers way. The players own some of this as well. Lack of locker room leadership and maturity from our franchise QB.  There was no locker room accountability. When Ben stepped up in this role, AB seemed to get mad and that was the beginning of the end. Mike Tomlin is not the only one responsible for the Steelers culture. Many of us fans respect the Steeler Way more than a lot of players.

I get that it happened on Tomlin's watch, but the egos of some of those players. FaceBook live during a coaches talk by AB and there are other examples. They only have one game with all of the Killer B's playing a full game together and that is the Jaguars loss, if I recall.

as for a new coach,  they would have to have a list of candidates and go from there. Considering how the Steelers don't fire HC's and they appear to have job security, they would actually have the upper hand in that regard. 

The Steelers try not to fire anyone. I think there are other things to do to improve the team. I don't know if letting Coach Tomlin go is the best thing for the team right now. I am tired of the losing, mediocrity, the up and down play,and some of comments. Like most Steelers fans, I want results. The results and overall betterment of the organization is more important to me than liking or disliking Coach Tomlin.

this team will remain is it has for the lest decade.  Mr.>.500 and catch phrases until he retires.  

That is what many believe, but that is not in stone either. Being Mr. .550 or .501 in many fans eyes is no longer acceptable. No SB appearance since 2010. No one is satisfied with just being 10-7 or 9-8. I think we all forget how difficult it is to win in the NFL. I try not to put like or dislike in my decisions or opinions on what is best for the organization. I think right now Coach Tomlin gives the Steelers the most stability and best chance to win. I also offered my opinion to help improve the team with retaining Coach Tomlin. I would love to see the coaching branches expanded, and a good veteran former HC like Mike Munchak and/or Brian Flores. That helps  with some of coach Tomlin's X and O's deficiencies against some of the more progressive teams/offenses and help in the locker room with some on field leadership on the offensive side of the ball.