Around The League

[BackinBlack]

17 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

This team is built on the defense playing top 10 good. We’re missing 2 starters and our best player can barely run. Yea we looked like crap any defense missing key guys like us would look like that.

Would Os missing key starters also get a pass for looking bad?

or only D in your opinion?

 

we’ve had brutal depth for 20 years, injuries hit us hard cause we draft like crap.

[ronjon1990]

59 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

Would Os missing key starters also get a pass for looking bad?

or only D in your opinion?

 

we’ve had brutal depth for 20 years, injuries hit us hard cause we draft like crap.

It's almost as if...gasp...stockpiling BPA at 1 or 2 positions doesn't work if the rest of the team is garbage!

This isn't just a gripe about the Bowers pick. It's been an issue we've had for years across numerous positions. 

Staff comes in and throws everything into 1 position or unit- great OL with garbage QB, RBs, and pass catchers; Good QB with crap OL, RBs, and pass catchers; Solid RB room with crap OL and pass game; a bunch of good receivers with a spotty OL, no QB, and marginal run game; etc. 

We do it both sides of the ball. We don't do a good job resigning guys until/unless they hit a point of being ridiculously expensive. How many 1st rounders have we blown on DL only to wind up with our best pass rushers being day 3 picks and a FA signing? When's the last time we actually made a reasonable attempt to draft an impact LB? 1 injury to a LB and we're basically pulling guys in off the street. 

I've tried to make the argument that going BPA and stacking weapons is a luxury for good teams, not building ones. In 4-5 years when we still suck because our depth is horrendous and Bowers dips out to greener pastures, that pick won't be as fondly remembered and will ultimately meam zilch to this franchise. The best response regarding Bowers is "but in 3 years he'll be a great weapon for the QBOTF". Sure, he would be, if we ever actually get there. Chances are, though, we'll still suck, he'll be yet another expensive FA to resign, and another talented player will have been wasted by this perpetually inept franchise because we're more interested in quick feel good hits than actually building a team like the Texans and Dolphins and Lions have done over the last few years. 

Save for Stroud, I can barely name anyone on Houston's offense without having to think for a second. Who is their TE? Idk, but I'd rather be Houston with whoever they have than the Raiders with Bowers. Being the Calvin and Stafford Lions isn't something I aspire for myself. 

What do the Giants, Jets, Browns, and Raiders have in common? They continually go after sexy pieces that rile up the fanbases while hoping to strike a genuine megastar. The rest of the roster remains gutted and the whiffs on FA signings are constant. Build the dang roster from the base up and add the cherries on top once that base is solid. 

Until we stop pretending we're a piece away and actually start drafting like a team building for a long term future rather than a 3 year window and hoping a miracle comes together, this is what we're going to keep seeing.

By the time our "great" players are in a position to really have an impact, their contracts are up and we're having to cut corners to accommodate. That's why this BPA nonsense has to stop. Just because drafting "for need" hasn't worked doesn't mean the concept is bad. We've just had poor evaluators. A solid base infused with young fancy talent works. Identifying one or two fancy young talents and spending 3, 4, 5 years attempting to plug gaping holes around them doesn't, not in the long run. And judging the better and more consistent franchises around the league amd how they've gone about things, you'd think people would stop fooling themselves.

It bewilders me that people haven't widened up to the idea that stocking talent at one or two spots on a bad team and trading multiple 1sts to move up are foolish and desperate ideas that virtually never work out. 

 

[big_palooka]

6 hours ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

I turned the Jags game off after the first quarter but it’s looking more and more like @ronjon1990 was right about Trevor Lawrence.

yikes and they already paid him, too.

Doug Pederson is a terrible coach. That's not helping him.

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

It's almost as if...gasp...stockpiling BPA at 1 or 2 positions doesn't work if the rest of the team is garbage!

What if..... gasp.... that never happened!?! 

When have the Raiders taken BPA and stockpiled anywhere? The Raiders missing countless draft picks, including multiple first rounders in the same year is why the roster lacks depth and top end talent.

How can you straight faced make a BPA argument about a team who has reached on nearly every draft pick in round 1 in the Mark Davis era?

Edited 12 hours ago by big_palooka

[ronjon1990]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

What if..... gasp.... that never happened!?! 

When have the Raiders taken BPA and stockpiled anywhere? The Raiders missing countless draft picks, including multiple first rounders in the same year is why the roster lacks depth and top end talent.

How can you straight faced make a BPA argument about a team who has reached on nearly every draft pick in round 1 in the Mark Davis era?

Dude, we all know you're going to defend Tommy T to no logical end. It's always the same with you, regardless of what evidence is shown or argument is made. He took your latest man crush, so he can do no wrong- the same as Zeigler and McDaniels were going to bring whatever the "Way" was to you and you would see nor hear any different than "We're the next Patriot Dynasty". 

What if...gasp...you actually read instead of cherrypicked every argument you make? 

"Just because drafting "for need" hasn't worked doesn't mean the concept is bad. We've just had poor evaluators."

Kinda self explanatory, but I'm not shocked you skipped over it the same way you'll skip over any inconvenient point as it relates to whoever your latest whomever has your favor until they don't. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

7 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

Would Os missing key starters also get a pass for looking bad?

or only D in your opinion?

 

we’ve had brutal depth for 20 years, injuries hit us hard cause we draft like crap.

If adams was hobbling like maxx and offense had key losses then yea you have to take that into consideration. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

10 hours ago, RaidersAreOne said:

Lol at those who weren't a fan of him. Dude is going to be a top tier QB sooner rather than later. Elite deep ball + elite mobility/scrambling? Yes please.

It sucks watching nfl seeing all the guys you wanted to draft balling on other teams. Not only was I a daniels guy but I liked mccaff too 🤦🏽‍♂️

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said:

Dude, we all know you're going to defend Tommy T to no logical end. It's always the same with you, regardless of what evidence is shown or argument is made. He took your latest man crush, so he can do no wrong- the same as Zeigler and McDaniels were going to bring whatever the "Way" was to you and you would see nor hear any different than "We're the next Patriot Dynasty". 

What if...gasp...you actually read instead of cherrypicked every argument you make? 

"Just because drafting "for need" hasn't worked doesn't mean the concept is bad. We've just had poor evaluators."

Kinda self explanatory, but I'm not shocked you skipped over it the same way you'll skip over any inconvenient point as it relates to whoever your latest whomever has your favor until they don't. 

If I skipped over anything, it's because you post novels and meander around to the point I don't think you know what point you were trying to make. 

And Telesco, I didn't support the hire. But sure....go off. If he was fired tomorrow, I couldn't care less. 

6 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Until we stop pretending we're a piece away and actually start drafting like a team building for a long term future rather than a 3 year window and hoping a miracle comes together, this is what we're going to keep seeing.

Wouldn't drafting BPA, players like Bowers and JPJ signal building for a long term future? 

The Raiders problem is and has been failing in the draft for 2 decades now. 

[BackinBlack]

6 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

It's almost as if...gasp...stockpiling BPA at 1 or 2 positions doesn't work if the rest of the team is garbage!

This isn't just a gripe about the Bowers pick. It's been an issue we've had for years across numerous positions. 

Staff comes in and throws everything into 1 position or unit- great OL with garbage QB, RBs, and pass catchers; Good QB with crap OL, RBs, and pass catchers; Solid RB room with crap OL and pass game; a bunch of good receivers with a spotty OL, no QB, and marginal run game; etc. 

We do it both sides of the ball. We don't do a good job resigning guys until/unless they hit a point of being ridiculously expensive. How many 1st rounders have we blown on DL only to wind up with our best pass rushers being day 3 picks and a FA signing? When's the last time we actually made a reasonable attempt to draft an impact LB? 1 injury to a LB and we're basically pulling guys in off the street. 

I've tried to make the argument that going BPA and stacking weapons is a luxury for good teams, not building ones. In 4-5 years when we still suck because our depth is horrendous and Bowers dips out to greener pastures, that pick won't be as fondly remembered and will ultimately meam zilch to this franchise. The best response regarding Bowers is "but in 3 years he'll be a great weapon for the QBOTF". Sure, he would be, if we ever actually get there. Chances are, though, we'll still suck, he'll be yet another expensive FA to resign, and another talented player will have been wasted by this perpetually inept franchise because we're more interested in quick feel good hits than actually building a team like the Texans and Dolphins and Lions have done over the last few years. 

Save for Stroud, I can barely name anyone on Houston's offense without having to think for a second. Who is their TE? Idk, but I'd rather be Houston with whoever they have than the Raiders with Bowers. Being the Calvin and Stafford Lions isn't something I aspire for myself. 

What do the Giants, Jets, Browns, and Raiders have in common? They continually go after sexy pieces that rile up the fanbases while hoping to strike a genuine megastar. The rest of the roster remains gutted and the whiffs on FA signings are constant. Build the dang roster from the base up and add the cherries on top once that base is solid. 

Until we stop pretending we're a piece away and actually start drafting like a team building for a long term future rather than a 3 year window and hoping a miracle comes together, this is what we're going to keep seeing.

By the time our "great" players are in a position to really have an impact, their contracts are up and we're having to cut corners to accommodate. That's why this BPA nonsense has to stop. Just because drafting "for need" hasn't worked doesn't mean the concept is bad. We've just had poor evaluators. A solid base infused with young fancy talent works. Identifying one or two fancy young talents and spending 3, 4, 5 years attempting to plug gaping holes around them doesn't, not in the long run. And judging the better and more consistent franchises around the league amd how they've gone about things, you'd think people would stop fooling themselves.

It bewilders me that people haven't widened up to the idea that stocking talent at one or two spots on a bad team and trading multiple 1sts to move up are foolish and desperate ideas that virtually never work out. 

 

I’m some what torn on this.

indont know what positions you think we’ve stockpiled talent at over the last 10+ years?

The only position possible would be WR, and I think a lot on here have said we’ve used too many resources on WR.

- 

but again, the bigger problem here is coaching/ gm turnover. Because the team gets gutted when it happens. 

id love to stockpile great DEs and DTs, don’t care if it’s luxury, that’d be great but we haven’t. We did try to pair Crosby with Wilson, which is looking a bust, but they did try. 
As you said we blow picks.. it has nothing to do with us stockpiling positions.. because we don’t get the talent.

 

i am torn though, because we had our choice of any D player in the draft. Which is wild. I certainly was hoping and expecting D.

that said, it’s tough to be angry with Bowers. 
Our biggest problem is blowing picks, and Brock’s skill set was one of the most complete packages in the draft. 
 

Even though Getsy has only used him as TE I think you gotta look at him as just a weapon. He can move around and help our O in many areas. 
 

Ultimately tho, until we get GM and then a coach in place, we will continue to blow draft picks as we continuously change directions.

gruden was pretty terrible drafter, but he had 3 years and the team actually started to look decent as he built out his vision. 
 

It has more to do with consistency in scheme then drafting imo.

Edited 8 hours ago by BackinBlack

[BackinBlack]

33 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

If adams was hobbling like maxx and offense had key losses then yea you have to take that into consideration. 

Fair enough, just our D clearly isn’t as good as we all hoped if Maxx being injured makes it look league worst.

Epps was in the whole first half (I think more IIRC) so not buying that excuse, and Koonce has been gone all year, and we looked good week 1 and 2 I thought.

- 

love Maxx, but if the D fricken brutal without him, I think the D is just bad, being covered by 1 mvp candidate level player

[NCOUGHMAN]

22 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

If I skipped over anything, it's because you post novels and meander around to the point I don't think you know what point you were trying to make. 

And Telesco, I didn't support the hire. But sure....go off. If he was fired tomorrow, I couldn't care less. 

Wouldn't drafting BPA, players like Bowers and JPJ signal building for a long term future? 

The Raiders problem is and has been failing in the draft for 2 decades now. 

Building for the future just so you can bitsh about the present is insane Imo. Make it make sense 

[NCOUGHMAN]

2 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

Fair enough, just our D clearly isn’t as good as we all hoped if Maxx being injured makes it look league worst.

Epps was in the whole first half (I think more IIRC) so not buying that excuse, and Koonce has been gone all year, and we looked good week 1 and 2 I thought.

- 

love Maxx, but if the D fricken brutal without him, I think the D is just bad, being covered by 1 mvp candidate level player

Koonce was/is arguably our second best defensive player and they way you over look that isn’t surprising. The fact that you don’t even mention Diablo also isn’t surprising. so many here wanted to see the defense with Diablo and now they got their wish…

[BackinBlack]

Just now, NCOUGHMAN said:

Koonce was/is arguably our second best defensive player and they way you over look that isn’t surprising. The fact that you don’t even mention Diablo also isn’t surprising. so many here wanted to see the defense with Diablo and now they got their wish…

I was extremely excited for Koonce this year, just thought the D played well week 1 and 2, so to use him as the excuse week 3 is tough imo. We played better Os, without Koonce and did way better.

that said I know he was a huge loss, but I can’t give the D a pass all year because of it.

-

Yea, Deablo I’ll give ya. He apparently was more important to this D than I thought. 

[BackinBlack]

Also how can Panthers D lose their Crosby in Derrick Brown, yet still be able to make us look useless?

id have traded Koonce for him straight up.. I assume you as well? 
 

So Car had just as big of loss, and their other Dt was out… 

they looked pretty good I thought. 

 

[NYRaider]

Jalen Carter is a dog, still an all time terrible decision to pass on him for Cle Ferrell twin brother