Soko Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 On 2/20/2024 at 1:31 PM, Jakuvious said: Such a uniquely bad cap situation. And so hilariously self-inflicted and predictable. It's as bad as you can remember because we've never seen anything like it. I’m pretty sure if the Saints cut every player on their roster that would save them money in 2024 - they’d still be over, lol. All these years of “Loomis cap magician”, well the real magic is going to be how they get cap compliant this year while still fielding a roster lol. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 2 minutes ago, Soko said: I’m pretty sure if the Saints cut every player on their roster that would save them money in 2024 - they’d still be over, lol. All these years of “Loomis cap magician”, well the real magic is going to be how they get cap compliant this year while still fielding a roster lol. The difference between Loomis and Howie, Howie would operate within the realm of sustainability, and didn't overplay his hand. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 51 minutes ago, Soko said: I’m pretty sure if the Saints cut every player on their roster that would save them money in 2024 - they’d still be over, lol. All these years of “Loomis cap magician”, well the real magic is going to be how they get cap compliant this year while still fielding a roster lol. Correct. It would save them roughly $45M, still leaving them about $40M over the cap. They're basically just going to have to extend/restructure more guys that they shouldn't. It's all funny money until the contracts you locked yourself into wind up being for players who are no longer holding up their end of the bargain, but you're stuck paying them anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 54 minutes ago, Danger said: The difference between Loomis and Howie, Howie would operate within the realm of sustainability, and didn't overplay his hand. Ehhhhh. I'm not going to say you're wrong. But I am going to say it's too soon to say this definitively. There are a lot of bad decisions that could be made over the next offseason or two. If none of them decide to retire, and they take another gamble on going all in and kicking money down the road and hoping the old guys don't fall off of a cliff performance wise in Kelce/Graham/Cox, that would be very Loomis-esque, to me. This would be a great offseason to bite the bullet on some of the like $50M they still owe regarding those three in terms of cap hits. And there are some bad decisions that have been made already, IMO. James Bradberry is basically uncuttable right now. You can June 1st him but that doesn't actually save anything, and then you're paying all that dead cap next year instead. James Bradberry is to Howie doing restructures what Michael Thomas was for Loomis. You'd really like to save some money and cut that guy that's not playing up to the contract you gave him, but the restructure kind of turned in to a bet on that guy not declining. And Bradberry is just the one that's turned bad so far. God forbid Slay or Johnson see a sharp decline. And again I think it would be really unwise to keep doing this with Kelce/Graham/Cox. Kelce might be the most justifiable one, but still risky. Philly's overthecap page doesn't look dissimilar to what New Orleans's looked like a year or two ago. Lotta guys already on minimum base salary deals. Almost everyone on a second contract can't be cut without costing the team cap space (IIRC, Reddick, Byard, Maddox, and Elliott are literally the only guys that don't cost money to cut.) And the Eagles drafting has been....let's say inconsistent, of late, which makes this harder too. Philly, to me, should take a step back for a year so as to not be the next Loomis cap scenario. But they can easily swing either way this offseason, IMO. Some really gross stuff can happen cap wise if they decide to go all in one more time and it doesn't work. Also, to be clear, I'm fine with restructures when it's like, I know with 99% confidence this guy is going to be on this team, playing great, for the duration of their deal including the void years. Awesome for young in their prime kind of contracts. If Minnesota wants to backload the crap out of a Justin Jefferson deal, go nuts, you aren't moving on from that guy in the next 5 years unless something catastrophic happens anyways. But I really don't like it with older players because of how quickly it can turn bad if they decline or retire when you weren't quite expecting it (or keep playing when you thought they'd retire, honestly.) Like, KC can do whatever they want with Mahomes's contract, as far as I'm concerned. I would not want to see void years on the end of Travis Kelce's, though. It just locks you into guys, and that's riskier when they're older, injury prone, and/or inconsistent. You push money out thinking a guy is a core player, and then a sudden decline in play and you're not getting your money's worth, but you already paid the guy in cash, but not cap, so you have no ability to move on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Tso Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Soko said: I’m pretty sure if the Saints cut every player on their roster that would save them money in 2024 - they’d still be over, lol. All these years of “Loomis cap magician”, well the real magic is going to be how they get cap compliant this year while still fielding a roster lol. I could be wrong, but I believe if it's really dire, they would be fined a draft pick, maybe even a first. But if they're willing to eat it for a year, that might be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 12 minutes ago, Jakuvious said: Ehhhhh. I'm not going to say you're wrong. But I am going to say it's too soon to say this definitively. There are a lot of bad decisions that could be made over the next offseason or two. If none of them decide to retire, and they take another gamble on going all in and kicking money down the road and hoping the old guys don't fall off of a cliff performance wise in Kelce/Graham/Cox, that would be very Loomis-esque, to me. This would be a great offseason to bite the bullet on some of the like $50M they still owe regarding those three in terms of cap hits. And there are some bad decisions that have been made already, IMO. James Bradberry is basically uncuttable right now. You can June 1st him but that doesn't actually save anything, and then you're paying all that dead cap next year instead. James Bradberry is to Howie doing restructures what Michael Thomas was for Loomis. You'd really like to save some money and cut that guy that's not playing up to the contract you gave him, but the restructure kind of turned in to a bet on that guy not declining. And Bradberry is just the one that's turned bad so far. God forbid Slay or Johnson see a sharp decline. And again I think it would be really unwise to keep doing this with Kelce/Graham/Cox. Kelce might be the most justifiable one, but still risky. Philly's overthecap page doesn't look dissimilar to what New Orleans's looked like a year or two ago. Lotta guys already on minimum base salary deals. Almost everyone on a second contract can't be cut without costing the team cap space (IIRC, Reddick, Byard, Maddox, and Elliott are literally the only guys that don't cost money to cut.) And the Eagles drafting has been....let's say inconsistent, of late, which makes this harder too. Philly, to me, should take a step back for a year so as to not be the next Loomis cap scenario. But they can easily swing either way this offseason, IMO. Some really gross stuff can happen cap wise if they decide to go all in one more time and it doesn't work. Also, to be clear, I'm fine with restructures when it's like, I know with 99% confidence this guy is going to be on this team, playing great, for the duration of their deal including the void years. Awesome for young in their prime kind of contracts. If Minnesota wants to backload the crap out of a Justin Jefferson deal, go nuts, you aren't moving on from that guy in the next 5 years unless something catastrophic happens anyways. But I really don't like it with older players because of how quickly it can turn bad if they decline or retire when you weren't quite expecting it (or keep playing when you thought they'd retire, honestly.) Like, KC can do whatever they want with Mahomes's contract, as far as I'm concerned. I would not want to see void years on the end of Travis Kelce's, though. It just locks you into guys, and that's riskier when they're older, injury prone, and/or inconsistent. You push money out thinking a guy is a core player, and then a sudden decline in play and you're not getting your money's worth, but you already paid the guy in cash, but not cap, so you have no ability to move on. We currently middle of the pack with cap space and can easily get up to about 35-40 million this off season. Kelce and Cox are not gonna be on the books after this year in all likelihood, as I doubt either of them are playing for the team next year, not under contract. The two guys I'd consider pushing money back for right now would be Mailata and Sweat. The Saints on the otherhand struggle to get to just $60 Million over the cap. It's like a difference of $100M on the books at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Ramster Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Guys a bad Qb. Bad Te and a worse FB. Sure he’s as useful as an empty bag of chips. Guy was the original goal line merchant who stood behind Drew I can’t win the big one Brees. we on a mission today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 I would like to see Hill paired with Lamar. I still think you can come up with a massive schematic advantage with 2 players who are both threats to run and throw. Some would call it a gimmick, but I don't think it's been properly tried with an elite player. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 29 minutes ago, Danger said: We currently middle of the pack with cap space and can easily get up to about 35-40 million this off season. Kelce and Cox are not gonna be on the books after this year in all likelihood, as I doubt either of them are playing for the team next year, not under contract. The two guys I'd consider pushing money back for right now would be Mailata and Sweat. The Saints on the otherhand struggle to get to just $60 Million over the cap. It's like a difference of $100M on the books at this point. The Saints weren't $80M over the cap 2 years ago, though. Like I said, they're not there now, but they can be with some wrong choices. You're middle of the pack right now. You're bottom 3 in 2025, bottom 2 in 2026, bottom 5 in 2027. The whole deal with pushing stuff out is yeah, you're fine right now, but you have reduced flexibility in future years. You can get up to $40M in space, but just about everyone can. That's not really the mark of a healthy cap situation. I bring up guys like Kelce because if he does come back this year, and retires next, that's $15M the Eagles are still on the hook for after his retirement. $7M for Graham. $10M for Cox. When you say next year, I assume you mean 2025, but I may be wrong, but to be clear if they play out their deals on the team this year, they are on the books for both this year (2024) as active players, and next year in the form of dead cap (2025.) Because they pushed that money out. They are going to be on the books after this year if it doesn't all hit this year because they retire or they let the contracts void or they get cut. And if it does all hit this year, well, their cap hits go up and that $35M - $40M is going to get cut down pretty heavily. Or they June 1st them and spread it out into next year which is back to the original they hit the cap in 2024 and 2025 scenario. You say you'd consider pushing money back for Mailata what exactly do you mean by that? Because that's like 90% already done. He's already on the books in 2024 for a minimum base salary. He and Sweat are already pushed out until 2027. You can move a little money by restructuring their option bonuses, but we're talking like $5M combined between the two. There's no one really left to restructure that will move the needle substantially. Just, again, Reddick and Byard. Everyone else has already been restructured. Like, I get why it looks fine now. But, do you not see the parallels between your post and all the Saints fans a few years back who said Loomis knows what he's doing and is a wizard and we can do X and be fine so there's no reason to panic? It's all under control until it's very, very not. And this isn't that far off from spiraling if, again, some sacrifices aren't made and the wrong choices are made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Looks like it’s that time of year again. We “won’t be able to sign any good free agents”, “we’re going to lose all our good players”, “there’s no way we get out of this cap situation” ***checks notes*** We already signed and replaced our biggest weakness on the team at Offensive Coordinator. ***grabs popcorn*** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Tso Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 4 hours ago, tyler735 said: Looks like it’s that time of year again. We “won’t be able to sign any good free agents”, “we’re going to lose all our good players”, “there’s no way we get out of this cap situation” ***checks notes*** We already signed and replaced our biggest weakness on the team at Offensive Coordinator. ***grabs popcorn*** I am not concerned that you'll be over the cap. It's the fact that your team has been mid because of continuing to pay this aging core and missing on draft value. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 No. He is a gimmick player, thats about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, General Tso said: I am not concerned that you'll be over the cap. It's the fact that your team has been mid because of continuing to pay this aging core and missing on draft value. Generally speaking we draft pretty well, and seem to hit much more frequently on Day 2, Day 3, and undrafted players than most teams. Still have been above .500 in 2 of the past 3 seasons since Brees retired. We have some aging players, but also have quite a bit of young talent/in prime talent as well on both sides of the ball. Just don't see this being as dire as some seem to think it is. Realistically it's impossible for every team to be a contender every season, but the Saints should have no issue yet again being in contention for winning the NFC South or possibly grabbing a Wild Card spot in 2024. Sure we aren't the Chiefs or 49ers, but should still be pretty competitive. If you get into the playoffs anything can happen. For the time being that is good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Ramster Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, tyler735 said: Generally speaking we draft pretty well, and seem to hit much more frequently on Day 2, Day 3, and undrafted players than most teams. Still have been above .500 in 2 of the past 3 seasons since Brees retired. We have some aging players, but also have quite a bit of young talent/in prime talent as well on both sides of the ball. Just don't see this being as dire as some seem to think it is. Realistically it's impossible for every team to be a contender every season, but the Saints should have no issue yet again being in contention for winning the NFC South or possibly grabbing a Wild Card spot in 2024. Sure we aren't the Chiefs or 49ers, but should still be pretty competitive. If you get into the playoffs anything can happen. For the time being that is good enough for me. We really sent yall to purgatory. The future cap is crying for relief. There’s teams who in 2-3 years will have onwards of 250-300 in cap space and the saints will have like 35.. that’s pretty insane. Still, I really do think it’s the owner who refuses to hit the reset button. It took a while to get fans in the dome and she doesn’t want to lose them. But signing guys like Carr will actually cause them to leave. There is no future no hope with a Qb like Carr. You’re essentially saying we’re kinda trying for a playoff spot at best. kamara, Latrimore and Jordan were an absolute awesome core 4 years ago. Now they’re aging and regressing players who’ve lost value. I’ll trade them all for seconds, but they can’t even do that as the dead money Will poison you in the future years. the saints really are in the shadow realm. Honestly go all out this year and then tank for Archie Manning. The saints really did end up with the crappiest manning, now it’s time for the prodigal son to return in its final form. WHO DEY! Or who dat? I always forget! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrantikRam Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Definitely not for the money. But as far being a valuable piece - I'd say so....feels like that shotgun run on the goal line/short yardage is extremely successful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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