The Bears-Offense

[StLunatic88]

35 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

The sky isn't necessarily falling, but I should remind you that you've been a Bears fan for about 5 minutes now. The loss last night is exactly how the Bears have performed, specifically in primetime, for a decade plus. They play a good team, they almost always almost win, they're held back by terrible offensive play- QB, run game, coaching, OL, the defense plays well because the coach is a defensive guy, and they lose.

Ive been here long enough to see you all whine and complain about the same things over and over. Thats for sure. So if you dont want to watch that... then dont? I mean its impressive how you know its going to be the same thing, or atleast something similar, than before but still complain anyway. Its like the one friend of the group who still complains about how their Highschool girlfriend cheated on them, except we are now all grown with kids. 

Yes the offense has under preformed, but once again there are like 4ish guys still here from before, its a brand new offense, and NO ONE in the NFL uses preseason anymore (its not an Eberflus thing, they all do this) so things take a while to get into gear. Not to mention, for the first time in a long while, Defenses may now be ahead of Offenses league wide, its a talent thing more than anything

I watched you all do this same stuff about the team last year, especially with the defense in the first few weeks, and it was completely different come the end of the season. Thats where the "sky is falling" stuff comes from, its two games, against 2 pretty good teams. (didnt see Rodgers lighting up that Titans D this week) 

I am asking all the same questions you guys are about what the offense is doing right now, except im not using those questions to make broad sweeping indictments about every single person at Halas Hall, and their entire tenure in all of football. Have you ever thought that maybe ALL your years as Bears fans may be coloring you the other way? That youre too Jaded to see things completely rationally and any single thing that doesnt go perfectly immediately you all just instantly go "here we go again" even though these guys have nothing to do with those previous regimes?

I said this pre-season. Making a full judgement on everything Poles and Eberflus have done on 8 quarters is crazy. Especially when the clear area of needed improvement is the one where they spent alot of resources on that are all still being put in place. 

So either give them the actual time to get this all implemented before calling everything a disaster, Or admit that the anti-Caleb crew was right, because those are your options. Because the only way we went about the offense this offseason like we did was all in support of Caleb Williams. So unless you are 100% ready to call him a bust and a mistake, then give it all time before youre calling this the Same Old Sorry *** Bears Offense

Edited Monday at 04:05 PM by StLunatic88

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

19 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Ive been here long enough to see you all whine and complain about the same things over and over. Thats for sure. So if you dont want to watch that... then dont? I mean its impressive how you know its going to be the same thing, or atleast something similar, than before but still complain anyway. Its like the one friend of the group who still complains about how their Highschool girlfriend cheated on them, except we are now all grown with kids. 

Yes the offense has under preformed, but once again there are like 4ish guys still here from before, its a brand new offense, and NO ONE in the NFL uses preseason anymore (its not an Eberflus thing, they all do this) so things take a while to get into gear. Not to mention, for the first time in a long while, Defenses may now be ahead of Offenses league wide, its a talent thing more than anything

I watched you all do this same stuff about the team last year, especially with the defense in the first few weeks, and it was completely different come the end of the season. Thats where the "sky is falling" stuff comes from, its two games, against 2 pretty good teams. (didnt see Rodgers lighting up that Titans D this week) 

I am asking all the same questions you guys are about what the offense is doing right now, except im not using those questions to make broad sweeping indictments about every single person at Halas Hall, and their entire tenure in all of football. Have you ever thought that maybe ALL your years as Bears fans may be coloring you the other way? That youre too Jaded to see things completely rationally and any single thing that doesnt go perfectly immediately you all just instantly go "here we go again" even though these guys have nothing to do with those previous regimes?

I said this pre-season. Making a full judgement on everything Poles and Eberflus have done on 8 quarters is crazy. Especially when the clear area of needed improvement is the one where they spent alot of resources on that are all still being put in place. 

So either give them the actual time to get this all implemented before calling everything a disaster, Or admit that the anti-Caleb crew was right, because those are your options. Because the only way we went about the offense this offseason like we did was all in support of Caleb Williams. So unless you are 100% ready to call him a bust and a mistake, then give it all time before youre calling this the Same Old Sorry *** Bears Offense

That's one way to see it:  the fans are the problem, for seeing the same problems with the team year after year? Since we're using analogies that's like getting mad about that damn cop pulling you over every day in the same spot for doing 25 over. 

I would LOVE to be complaining about something else,  get me bitching about a super bowl parade being too early in the day.  Get me worried about one of our coordinators getting poached as an HC.  

And as for preaching patience for 3 years... Team's all around the league seem to get it right and turned around in less time than a car loan, if we're still saying "more time" next year don't you think that may be a bit indulgent?  And I am in FAVOR of keeping Flus around for another year even if things are great, but that doesn't mean they made the right call keeping him last year. 

Just speaking for myself here, if I say "WE'RE DOOMED" in week 2,  it's at least half tongue in cheek as the over-reactions are always so strong this time of year.  That doesn't mean they look good or that there aren't serious issues that shouldn't exist. 

[beardown3231]

26 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Ive been here long enough to see you all whine and complain about the same things over and over. Thats for sure. So if you dont want to watch that... then dont? I mean its impressive how you know its going to be the same thing, or atleast something similar, than before but still complain anyway. Its like the one friend of the group who still complains about how their Highschool girlfriend cheated on them, except we are now all grown with kids. 

I don't KNOW it'll be the same thing, but through 8 quarters, it has been the same thing. Using Everett over Kmet. QB's throwing picks. OL- which inexplicably hasn't been given much of an effort to be built up in Poles' tenure- blows. Herbert's averaging like 4.5 ypc in his career, and he isn't playing. Tell me why I should be optimistic

Yes the offense has under preformed, but once again there are like 4ish guys still here from before, its a brand new offense, and NO ONE in the NFL uses preseason anymore (its not an Eberflus thing, they all do this) so things take a while to get into gear. Not to mention, for the first time in a long while, Defenses may now be ahead of Offenses league wide, its a talent thing more than anything

How many teams have 1 touchdown in 2 games? I don't care what the Panthers and Jaguars and whoever else is doing. The Bears have 3 "good" WR's or so we were told, 2 suited up last night, and they still looked terrible. 

I watched you all do this same stuff about the team last year, especially with the defense in the first few weeks, and it was completely different come the end of the season. Thats where the "sky is falling" stuff comes from, its two games, against 2 pretty good teams. (didnt see Rodgers lighting up that Titans D this week) 

Yeah, the defense looked great last year. What is your point? The only teams the Bears beat for the most part were crap. They beat Goff once. They also beat Arizona and Atlanta at home, two of the worst 8 teams in football. They almost beat the Browns. Yippee. I'm glad the defense is good. I'm also not happy the offense stinks.

I am asking all the same questions you guys are about what the offense is doing right now, except im not using those questions to make broad sweeping indictments about every single person at Halas Hall, and their entire tenure in all of football. Have you ever thought that maybe ALL your years as Bears fans may be coloring you the other way? That youre too Jaded to see things completely rationally and any single thing that doesnt go perfectly immediately you all just instantly go "here we go again" even though these guys have nothing to do with those previous regimes?

"Here we go again" has nothing to do with prior regimes necessarily. The offense has sucked for Poles' tenure.

I said this pre-season. Making a full judgement on everything Poles and Eberflus have done on 8 quarters is crazy. Especially when the clear area of needed improvement is the one where they spent alot of resources on that are all still being put in place. 

The clear area was OL. They signed a guy LAR didn't want. They traded a 5th for a guy BUF didn't want. They drafted a project in round 3 from an Ivy League school. They didn't "spend a lot of resources."

So either give them the actual time to get this all implemented before calling everything a disaster, Or admit that the anti-Caleb crew was right, because those are your options. Because the only way we went about the offense this offseason like we did was all in support of Caleb Williams. So unless you are 100% ready to call him a bust and a mistake, then give it all time before youre calling this the Same Old Sorry *** Bears Offense

A bust? No, but far too enough in this city we are talking about what the QB couldn't do because <excuse excuse excuse> not what he did positively. Been there, done that. We're doing it again today. Today it's too early (excuse). In 6 weeks it'll be that the rookie rollercoaster is in full effect. Sometimes, you have to rise above the issues

 

[dll2000]

17 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

You have coached. I have not. If I had, I wouldn't continue to give my QB 5 and 7 step drops straight back if he was getting crushed repeatedly.

During a game like that, in game you are just screwed no matter what you do.  There is no right answer once whistle blows and you realize after that you can't block guys across from you.

You can see below, Waldron has thrown up his hands and is going max protect -which is 7 or 8 blockers.  In this case 7, one does a check release.  Defense sends 5 and still gets there because they don't pick up the stunt.  

The wheels on bus are just off.  They have no fear of run and are just coming forward hard every play with no respect.  

 Either the guys you have play better or are replaced and those guys play better.   No offense works with free runners.   Collinsworth had it right - 2.5 seconds is goal. 

Most plays are designed with 6 man protection and 2.5 seconds to throw.  They are timed that way.  5 man protection is less.  Like a little less than 2 seconds.  

When you keep 7 or 8 to block.  Those plays are designed for longer.  Like 3.5 seconds.

When you start running 7 man protections and pressure is still getting there - you are just screwed.  The other team is just better that day.  

Because you are likely behind and you couldn't run ball anyway.  It's just going to get worse as game goes on.  Like we saw last night.  

You could give up like Fox did in Trubisky's first year.  Just run, run, punt.   Get better at running.  Keep it close and avoid blow outs, but you still lose.  It is like 4 corners basketball with no shot clock.  

To me that is just giving up.  I would still try to win every game.  

When your oline is weaker than your opponents I suggest you change from straight zone blocking to angle blocking schemes.  Where you have leverage and can beat a better athlete in run game.  But doing that now and not in camp and offseason - is a major problem.  Not easy.  Nagy tried to do it probably because Childress was telling him to.  He had some success, but mostly not.   You have to recognize it sooner and act.  Really hard to do on the fly.  

Oline is about execution.  It takes a lot of time and reps together.   Changing things all time is generally a bad idea.

Cont.  because getting long.  

[beardown3231]

9 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

During a game like that, in game you are just screwed no matter what you do.  There is no right answer once whistle blows and you realize after that you can't block guys across from you.

You can see below, Waldron has thrown up his hands and is going max protect -which is 7 or 8 blockers.  In this case 7, one does a check release.  Defense sends 5 and still gets there because they don't pick up the stunt.  

The wheels on bus are just off.  They have no fear of run and are just coming forward hard every play with no respect.  

 Either the guys you have play better or are replaced and those guys play better.   No offense works with free runners.   Collinsworth had it right - 2.5 seconds is goal. 

Most plays are designed with 6 man protection and 2.5 seconds to throw.  They are timed that way.  5 man protection is less.  Like a little less than 2 seconds.  

When you keep 7 or 8 to block.  Those plays are designed for longer.  Like 3.5 seconds.

When you start running 7 man protections and pressure is still getting there - you are just screwed.  The other team is just better that day.  

Because you are likely behind and you couldn't run ball anyway.  It's just going to get worse as game goes on.  Like we saw last night.  

You could give up like Fox did in Trubisky's first year.  Just run, run, punt.   Get better at running.  Keep it close and avoid blow outs, but you still lose.  It is like 4 corners basketball with no shot clock.  

To me that is just giving up.  I would still try to win every game.  

When your oline is weaker than your opponents I suggest you change from straight zone blocking to angle blocking schemes.  Where you have leverage and can beat a better athlete in run game.  But doing that now and not in camp and offseason - is a major problem.  Not easy.  Nagy tried to do it probably because Childress was telling him to.  He had some success, but mostly not.   You have to recognize it sooner and act.  Really hard to do on the fly.  

Oline is about execution.  It takes a lot of time and reps together.   Changing things all time is generally a bad idea.

Cont.  because getting long.  

I mostly agree, but you can run a draw or a screen. You can try a counter. They had a good idea with a few WR screens (not the TE ones, those suck). You can move the pocket. How about a roll out? I know things go to s*** when the gameplan goes out the window, but jesus, try something. ANYTHING

[dll2000]

Hard to know what I would do not being in room and practices.  They guys have been together for hours a day for months.

You know the guys intimately by now or should.

At some point in practice, in offseason, if you aren't getting it done you can see that, you have to go to HC and say we aren't cutting it with guys we have.  We have to make a move.  Then HC goes to GM.  

Or you may think when so and so is healthy we will be fine.  Until then we have to ride it out.  Maybe that is what is happening.  I don't know.  

But if HC comes back to you and says we are riding with these guys, make it work, and you know some of your guys stink - then you have to get creative.  That is reality lower level coaches face. 

Cut blocks.  Trap blocks. Down blocks.  Pin and Pull.  Reads. Whatever.  I don't know.   But do it in camp, if you can.

You have to be able to run the ball somewhat.  To have no running game against a defense playing a 2 high shell is just embarrassing.  But honestly that is more than half the league right now.  I watched a bunch of games this weekend.

Defenses are kicking poop out of offenses physically.   

On other hand.  GB just won the game without a viable QB.  Won the game.  Colts had stupidest first half defensive game plan I have ever seen though.  

 

[dll2000]

Might be an overreaction though.  It's early.  Guys haven't played together.  

Jenkins is playing really bad, and I know he is talented.

Guys just need to get better and on same page.  

Maybe they won't get good, but they can get serviceable.

 

[dll2000]

QB had a lot of things to be positive about I must repeat.

Broncos and Panthers are looking very nervous right now.  So are other teams.

 

[Mdpackfan22]

What's Bears fans opinion of Poles? The Rome pick was a luxury pick that Bears couldn't afford. This past OL draft class was one of the best in awhile and he took a WR. The Clayborn trade was terrible. Trading away Roquan was terrible. If it wasn't for the Panthers trade fleece, I think he'd be considered one of the worst GMs in the league. 

[Sugashane]

16 minutes ago, Mdpackfan22 said:

What's Bears fans opinion of Poles? The Rome pick was a luxury pick that Bears couldn't afford. This past OL draft class was one of the best in awhile and he took a WR. The Clayborn trade was terrible. Trading away Roquan was terrible. If it wasn't for the Panthers trade fleece, I think he'd be considered one of the worst GMs in the league. 

The Roquan trade wasn't terrible imo, Poles tried to work with him and even held him out of activities to ensure he didn't get a freak injury - Smith threw a tantrum on social media. Since Smith wasn't willing to deal he made the trade. If he would have caved to Smith then he'd have lost credibility with the roster/staff imo.

Claypool trade was a massive turd. Allen is currently a 1 year rental so I don't mind the Rome pick. Would have been over the moon with Fashanu there though. His fleecing of CAR definitely has been his biggest positive, but if Williams doesn't hit then it's a massive failure.

I'm slightly pro-Poles right now, but he definitely has warts. His coaching staff has been really suspect imo. Getsy was a colossal flop and acrively avoided Fields' stremghts, players aren't seeming to progress much outside of Eberflus' side of the ball. I kind of do quarterly grades for the GM and HC. The IOL has hd resources thrown at it but theyve been abysmal, so now I'm starting to get concerned Williams will get David Carr'd.

 

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW said:

That's one way to see it:  the fans are the problem, for seeing the same problems with the team year after year? Since we're using analogies that's like getting mad about that damn cop pulling you over every day in the same spot for doing 25 over. 

Did I say that? Youre allowed to be a fan, but its the most generic complaint "the offense doesnt score" while its not the same actual problem the entire time. There have been a bunch of different reason for this.

Again, complaining is fine and expected from just about every fanbase, but it has been like 20 actual drives for Caleb Williams and its already been decided that all hope is lost. Were right back to where we were. Blah Blah blah

All coming from the same people who were beyond confident that this guys was a CANT MISS prospect. "Generational" was thrown around an awful lot by the same fans who are now acting like we are in the same QB Hell that weve always been in

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

I don't KNOW it'll be the same thing, but through 8 quarters, it has been the same thing. Using Everett over Kmet. QB's throwing picks. OL- which inexplicably hasn't been given much of an effort to be built up in Poles' tenure- blows. Herbert's averaging like 4.5 ypc in his career, and he isn't playing. Tell me why I should be optimistic

You will never be optimistic, so I dont even know why Im doing this. but...

Kmet and Everett arent that far apart as many of you want to pretend. I agree that Kmet is better, and should be more of a focal point, but we are implementing an entire new offense and Everett is one of the very few here that know it. Hes going to get more run because he knows what he is doing.

QBs throwing picks? Seriously thats a complaint now? Feels like your standards might be a bit out of wack here.

There has been alot of effort pushed into the OL, it hasnt resulted in what we want much due to injury, but pretending that they have just ignored it is a lie. 6 actual Draft picks in 3 years (including a Top 10), a traded pick and a Top of the market Free Agent. All along with a Top 40 Pick they inherited and had to make work.

And again, Herbet is just north of a JAG. he cant block, he cant catch. So even if he was really this amazing runner that you seem to think he is, its still less than half of what a RB needs to be in 2024

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

How many teams have 1 touchdown in 2 games? I don't care what the Panthers and Jaguars and whoever else is doing. The Bears have 3 "good" WR's or so we were told, 2 suited up last night, and they still looked terrible. 

Seems like a rational start to a conversation. 

Keenan has been hurt and didnt play last night. Rome is hurt and a Rookie, as seen from some key plays so far this year where he isnt where hes supposed to be. But saying they are "terrible" is what make this whole thing foolish. Does this all magically change for you if Allen actually catches the TD in week 1? Because if it does youre complaining just to complain. And if it doesnt, then you would agree we need to give them time, so why are you complaining?

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

Yeah, the defense looked great last year. What is your point? The only teams the Bears beat for the most part were crap. They beat Goff once. They also beat Arizona and Atlanta at home, two of the worst 8 teams in football. They almost beat the Browns. Yippee. I'm glad the defense is good. I'm also not happy the offense stinks

You are completely missing the point of what I said. I think you specifically called it the worst defense in the league early in the year (what they actually were in '22) but putting it together and giving them time to grow showed that they were actually good, and Now they are Great given another year to gel and add the finishing touches to it.

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

"Here we go again" has nothing to do with prior regimes necessarily. The offense has sucked for Poles' tenure.

Thats not what is being said around here. Nagy has been referenced many times in the last 24 hours. 

And saying things like that, regardless if you are talking compared to 2022 or 2012 is just like saying "no Ohio State QB will ever be good because they havent before"

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

The clear area was OL. They signed a guy LAR didn't want. They traded a 5th for a guy BUF didn't want. They drafted a project in round 3 from an Ivy League school. They didn't "spend a lot of resources."

The ENTIRE offense was the issue. Not just the OL. Actually we had put more resources into the OL than we did almost anywhere else into the Offense before this offseason. No one is arguing the OL doesnt need to be better and get figured out. But again, they went and got the most proven option at OC that was available. They went and got a reliable vet WR that everyone likes, they got a dynamic RB, they drafted a Rookie WR that many around here told me was just as good as Nabers (if not better) amongst other thing, that include bringing in a new wave of OL. Thats is alot of resources spent on the ENTIRE OFFENSE

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

I mostly agree, but you can run a draw or a screen. You can try a counter. They had a good idea with a few WR screens (not the TE ones, those suck). You can move the pocket. How about a roll out? I know things go to s*** when the gameplan goes out the window, but jesus, try something. ANYTHING

I think he was.  That was why he spent whole game staring burning holes into his playsheet.  

10,000 plays for every scenario are worth less than 10 you can run well.  

The players have to execute.  Coaches have to teach them how and hold them accountable when they don't.

 

[beardown3231]

44 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

You will never be optimistic, so I dont even know why Im doing this. but...

Kmet and Everett arent that far apart as many of you want to pretend. I agree that Kmet is better, and should be more of a focal point, but we are implementing an entire new offense and Everett is one of the very few here that know it. Hes going to get more run because he knows what he is doing.

Of course I can be optimistic. I was optimistic all offseason which is sadly becoming a trend. Nobody wins offseasons quite like this franchise.

QBs throwing picks? Seriously thats a complaint now? Feels like your standards might be a bit out of wack here.

Yes, QB's throwing multiple picks is a serious issue. Do you disagree?

There has been alot of effort pushed into the OL, it hasnt resulted in what we want much due to injury, but pretending that they have just ignored it is a lie. 6 actual Draft picks in 3 years (including a Top 10), a traded pick and a Top of the market Free Agent. All along with a Top 40 Pick they inherited and had to make work.

I loved the Braxton Jones and Kiran picks, but if you want to hang your hat on a 6th rounder (Kramer) and a 7th rounder who isn't here anymore (Carter), be my guest. I loved the Wright pick, too. That doesn't mean it can't be better. 

And again, Herbet is just north of a JAG. he cant block, he cant catch. So even if he was really this amazing runner that you seem to think he is, its still less than half of what a RB needs to be in 2024

I don't think he's amazing. You keep saying that. I do know he has almost averaged 5 ypc.

Seems like a rational start to a conversation. 

People keep saying "yeah but the rest of the teams look bad on offense, too." Who cares? Not me. Play better. What the Bears are doing has nothing to do with what the Browns, Broncos, etc are doing.

Keenan has been hurt and didnt play last night. Rome is hurt and a Rookie, as seen from some key plays so far this year where he isnt where hes supposed to be. But saying they are "terrible" is what make this whole thing foolish. Does this all magically change for you if Allen actually catches the TD in week 1? Because if it does youre complaining just to complain. And if it doesnt, then you would agree we need to give them time, so why are you complaining?

To clarify, I didn't say the WR's are terrible. I said despite the Odunze pick and Allen acquisition, the offense is still terrible.

You are completely missing the point of what I said. I think you specifically called it the worst defense in the league early in the year (what they actually were in '22) but putting it together and giving them time to grow showed that they were actually good, and Now they are Great given another year to gel and add the finishing touches to it.

I hope I'm wrong. I don't see it that way though. I don't see a way this group on offense gets to be a top 10 unit. Not even close.

Thats not what is being said around here. Nagy has been referenced many times in the last 24 hours. 

I haven't mentioned Nagy.

And saying things like that, regardless if you are talking compared to 2022 or 2012 is just like saying "no Ohio State QB will ever be good because they havent before"

The ENTIRE offense was the issue. Not just the OL. Actually we had put more resources into the OL than we did almost anywhere else into the Offense before this offseason. No one is arguing the OL doesnt need to be better and get figured out. But again, they went and got the most proven option at OC that was available. They went and got a reliable vet WR that everyone likes, they got a dynamic RB, they drafted a Rookie WR that many around here told me was just as good as Nabers (if not better) amongst other thing, that include bringing in a new wave of OL. Thats is alot of resources spent on the ENTIRE OFFENSE

Not every resource is created equal. 6th and 7th rounders suck 98% of the time, so while Kramer and Carter were good thoughts, I don't consider those resources. As I said, Jones was a very athletic, toolsy guy coming out and I liked the pick. I pounded the proverbial table for Wright. I hated the Davis acquisition.

 

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

Did I say that? Youre allowed to be a fan, but its the most generic complaint "the offense doesnt score" while its not the same actual problem the entire time. There have been a bunch of different reason for this.

Again, complaining is fine and expected from just about every fanbase, but it has been like 20 actual drives for Caleb Williams and its already been decided that all hope is lost. Were right back to where we were. Blah Blah blah

All coming from the same people who were beyond confident that this guys was a CANT MISS prospect. "Generational" was thrown around an awful lot by the same fans who are now acting like we are in the same QB Hell that weve always been in

 

I get that complaining about the OL gets old, especially when it's every year it seems, and no one wants to hear doom and gloom etc etc etc. And we certainly did a lot of that, specifically the interior wondering if a cast off and cheap trade were going to be enough.  I get it, it's repetitive. 

 

But, were we wrong?