2023 stats that surprise you

[Thomas5737]

22 minutes ago, Xmad said:

Yeah it's not like Brock purdy threw 4 INTS in a prime time game against the other QB and looked like a non functional QB and is on a very stacked team.

Brock also had 10 games with a rating over 100 and 12 over 90, but yeah lets focus on one of his two bad games to prove he is unworthy.

25 minutes ago, Xmad said:

Allen had the most turnovers in the league by a solid margin as well. (18 INTS and 7 fumbles) 

And by far the most TDs. He had a flawed season. Through the first 10 games of the season Lamar had 15 total TD and 12 turnovers. 60% of his season was garbage, he just had the #1 defense to rely on giving up 3, 3, 6, 9, 16, 17... points in that span.

 

35 minutes ago, Xmad said:

Also QB rating/=/playing like an MVP and carrying your team. Brock Purdy on the ravens is a bottom 10 offense, Lamar on the 49ers is the no.1 offense. 

Nothing like hypothetical facts to prove your point. Purdy is a good passer, if it didn't matter if he was we'd be talking about how Trey Lance should be the MVP.

[Xmad]

15 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Brock also had 10 games with a rating over 100 and 12 over 90, but yeah lets focus on one of his two bad games to prove he is unworthy.

And by far the most TDs. He had a flawed season. Through the first 10 games of the season Lamar had 15 total TD and 12 turnovers. 60% of his season was garbage, he just had the #1 defense to rely on giving up 3, 3, 6, 9, 16, 17... points in that span.

 

Nothing like hypothetical facts to prove your point. Purdy is a good passer, if it didn't matter if he was we'd be talking about how Trey Lance should be the MVP.

If you can't play well against good competition you're not an MVP my dude. He had four bad games (the 3 game losing streak in the middle of the year where he had multiple turnovers in every single game) and the ravens meltdown. The three losses in the middle of the year were to teams with winning records (Vikings probably run the table with a healthy cousins but they had a winning record at the time lol) 

I'm saying if you swapped their positions they'd be two very different QBs. Brock Purdy couldn't carry the ravens offense like the 49ers offense carries him, Lamar would thrive in San Fran because they'd be unstoppable.

[Thomas5737]

3 minutes ago, Xmad said:

I'm saying if you swapped their positions they'd be two very different QBs. Brock Purdy couldn't carry the ravens offense like the 49ers offense carries him, Lamar would thrive in San Fran because they'd be unstoppable.

Can't argue with your opinion, you're entitled to it. It's just hypothetical.

Purdy is a better passer than Jackson so the offenses would look different for both teams in all likelihood. Obviously it would lead to the Ravens having a better passing attack and the 49ers relying even more on the running game. Lamar had forever to throw so that would sit well for Purdy. Purdy did have a crazy good game against the 10-1 Eagles. Lamar struggled against the Steelers and the 2nd Browns game, pretty much gave that one away. He also had 0 TD and 2 turnovers in the Texans regular season game but they won. No one was perfect, if you eliminate someone just based on your player not doing it then it can be turned around pretty easily.

I wouldn't have an issue with a split vote between all of the guys competing for MVP leaving Lamar with the most votes but 49 out of 50 makes it a total joke.

[Xmad]

10 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Can't argue with your opinion, you're entitled to it. It's just hypothetical.

Purdy is a better passer than Jackson so the offenses would look different for both teams in all likelihood. Obviously it would lead to the Ravens having a better passing attack and the 49ers relying even more on the running game. Lamar had forever to throw so that would sit well for Purdy. Purdy did have a crazy good game against the 10-1 Eagles. Lamar struggled against the Steelers and the 2nd Browns game, pretty much gave that one away. He also had 0 TD and 2 turnovers in the Texans regular season game but they won. No one was perfect, if you eliminate someone just based on your player not doing it then it can be turned around pretty easily.

I wouldn't have an issue with a split vote between all of the guys competing for MVP leaving Lamar with the most votes but 49 out of 50 makes it a total joke.

........My brother in christ. Lamar just had the best passing season of his career.

How is giving 49/50 MVP votes to the best QB in the league last year a joke?

The first steelers game was literally the WRs dropping like 6-7 passes, I forgot who but someone dropped a TD. Purdy's a good QB but my guy is literally just Gardner Minshew with a competent as **** offense and coaching. He is a *good* QB. Even then one good season does not make him better than literally half of the other MVP candidates. He wasn't even the best QB in the NFC, that was Dak, maybe Goff. 

[Forge]

8 hours ago, Xmad said:

........My brother in christ. Lamar just had the best passing season of his career.

How is giving 49/50 MVP votes to the best QB in the league last year a joke?

The first steelers game was literally the WRs dropping like 6-7 passes, I forgot who but someone dropped a TD. Purdy's a good QB but my guy is literally just Gardner Minshew with a competent as **** offense and coaching. He is a *good* QB. Even then one good season does not make him better than literally half of the other MVP candidates. He wasn't even the best QB in the NFC, that was Dak, maybe Goff. 

The hyperbole that people use to describe Brock Purdy on both sides is insane. 

One of the few guys in the league who is consistently overrated and underrated. 

Dak was probably the best QB in the NFC last year, but there was not much of a case for Goff over Purdy. And Purdy as a whole has been much closer to Jared Goff than Gardner Minshew in his career though the sample with Purdy is still somewhat limited. Maybe that is a semantics issue, but kind of crazy to compare him to Minshew who has some of the worst pocket awareness and understanding in the league. 

[Chiefer]

Brock is solid, but more of a product of the offense than a great individual player. 

Im not saying he can’t get better though, he’s like early stage Tom Brady. A key piece/catalyst on a contender team, but not carrying them. 

[JIllg]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

The hyperbole that people use to describe Brock Purdy on both sides is insane. 

One of the few guys in the league who is consistently overrated and underrated. 

Dak was probably the best QB in the NFC last year, but there was 0 case for Goff over Purdy. And Purdy as a whole has been much closer to Jared Goff than Gardner Minshew in his career though the sample with Purdy is still somewhat limited. Maybe that is a semantics issue, but kind of crazy to compare him to Minshew who has some of the worst pocket awareness and understanding in the league. 

The real answer is, it wasn't a great year for MVP candidates all the way around. No one went out and put up a 2011 Aaron Rodgers year or somesuch. Brock had the best ever 9.6 YPA given a certain amount of pass attempts and the crazy efficiency metrics, but on a lower volume and with rough times in the few impactful 4th quarters he had to play. Dak had probably the best case overall - similar enough efficiency to Purdy on higher volume and with a worse weapons cast (although Purdy had the worst pass protecting offensive line among playoff participants by a decent margin). Patrick Mahomes dragged a malfunctioning Kelce and two poor tackles and junky receivers to a slightly above average offense. That would have been a fine choice. Allen was incredibly impactful with his legs and arm - I think that Josh would have been another fine choice even though the turnovers were significantly more than a typical MVP. And Lamar, who obviously won the award, was also as deserving as the others. As a passer, he was a bit Brock-lite. Really good efficiency numbers on significantly fewer attempts even than Purdy. But was a terrific and impactful runner, and anchored an offense that did not have a lot of juice in the skill positions and needed his full skillset to work. 

But straight up, outside of the MVP discussion there is a question about how well these high-efficiency low-volume types can work come playoff time. With this year and 2019, Lamar has led two of the best regular season teams in the last 30 years and they didn't threaten the Super Bowl in good part because their offense underperformed in the playoffs. Same for these iterations of the 49ers with Jimmy G and Purdy. Both have found their offenses underperforming their usual marks in the playoffs. And I'd like to compare it to high-efficiency offenses in basketball. You'd love to have your offense revolve around the most efficient shots - looks at the rim and threes. But in the playoffs, often what happens is that these high efficiency shots get choked off by better defenses that can force you into the less efficient midrange 2s. And having scorers that can still produce even in such environments is therefore more valuable than it is in other contexts. The same is true for NFL offenses. You don't want to have to straight drop back and throw the ball without play-action over and over again. It isn't as efficient on a per-play basis as running the ball and taking shots when teams overcommit. But good defenses will make you do so as the playoffs move on. And the teams that build themselves better for these playoff contexts will overperform. Not having a good pass-protecting offensive line is fine, for instance, when you can protect that offensive line with play-action and motion and by constantly being able to threaten every kind of play. It is less good when you have to play from behind and hold up against a pass rush that knows you are going to pass.

Edited May 6 by JIllg

[Forge]

8 minutes ago, JIllg said:

The real answer is, it wasn't a great year for MVP candidates all the way around. No one went out and put up a 2011 Aaron Rodgers year or somesuch. Brock had the best ever 9.6 YPA given a certain amount of pass attempts and the crazy efficiency metrics, but on a lower volume and with rough times in the few impactful 4th quarters he had to play. Dak had probably the best case overall - similar enough efficiency to Purdy on higher volume and with a worse weapons cast (although Purdy had the worst pass protecting offensive line among playoff participants by a decent margin). Patrick Mahomes dragged a malfunctioning Kelce and two poor tackles and junky receivers to a slightly above average offense. That would have been a fine choice. Allen was incredibly impactful with his legs and arm - I think that Josh would have been another fine choice even though the turnovers were significantly more than a typical MVP. And Lamar, who obviously won the award, was also as deserving as the others. As a passer, he was a bit Brock-lite. Really good efficiency numbers on significantly fewer attempts even than Purdy. But was a terrific and impactful runner, and anchored an offense that did not have a lot of juice in the skill positions and needed his full skillset to work. 

But straight up, outside of the MVP discussion there is a question about how well these high-efficiency low-volume types can work come playoff time. With this year and 2019, Lamar has led two of the best regular season teams in the last 30 years and they didn't threaten the Super Bowl in good part because their offense underperformed in the playoffs. Same for these iterations of the 49ers with Jimmy G and Purdy. Both have found their offenses underperforming their usual marks in the playoffs. And I'd like to compare it to high-efficiency offenses in basketball. You'd love to have your offense revolve around the most efficient shots - looks at the rim and threes. But in the playoffs, often what happens is that these high efficiency shots get choked off by better defenses that can force you into the less efficient midrange 2s. And having scorers at than still produce even in such environments is therefore more valuable than it is in other contexts. The same is true for NFL offenses. You don't want to have to straight drop back and throw the ball without play-action over and over again. It isn't as efficient on a per-play basis as running the ball and taking shots when teams overcommit. But good defenses will make you do so as the playoffs move on. And the teams that build themselves better for these playoff contexts will overperform. Not having a good pass-protecting offensive line is fine, for instance, when you can protect that offensive line with play-action and motion and by constantly being able to threaten every kind of play. It is less good when you have to play from behind and hold up against a pass rush that knows you are going to pass.

Yep. The MVP is mostly whatever. As soon as he dropped that egg against Baltimore, I took him out of that debate. You just can't do it in that spot. I think comparing him to Minshew is a bit much though. In the last week I've seen him compared to Minshew on here and I've seen someone equate CJ Beathard and Nick Mullens' performances with weaker 49ers teams as a possible indictment on how good Purdy actually is. That's ruiz level of hate. 

The fact that this was such a crappy MVP year probably goes more to @Thomas5737's point that in no way should Lamar have gotten 49 of 50 possible first place votes. This MVP year was kind of yucky as hell, I get the argument that there shouldn't have been a near unanimous selection. 

But I have made my concern about Purdy / Shanny in the playoffs known this entire last playoff season. I harped on his performances going into pretty much every game.  Like you said, high efficiency thing hasn't worked in the playoffs for the niners and Shanny. It did work to a degree with Shanny / Ryan in 2016, though there was some dial back as well. I just have a tough time separating whether it's a shanny or purdy thing. Purdy hasn't been Jimmy G in the playoffs, but the small sample size hasn't been kind either. And coincidentally, Goff was much the same with the Rams. 

[Thomas5737]

9 hours ago, Xmad said:

........My brother in christ. Lamar just had the best passing season of his career.

Not even close. It was much closer to his 2020 season.

 

9 hours ago, Xmad said:

How is giving 49/50 MVP votes to the best QB in the league last year a joke?

Statistically Purdy was the best, by a good margin. Allen was the best offensive weapon. Lamar had a 5 TD game in his last game, otherwise he was 24 TD 14 Turnovers.

9 hours ago, Xmad said:

The first steelers game was literally the WRs dropping like 6-7 passes, I forgot who but someone dropped a TD.

That happens to all QBs

9 hours ago, Xmad said:

Purdy's a good QB but my guy is literally just Gardner Minshew with a competent as **** offense and coaching. He is a *good* QB. Even then one good season does not make him better than literally half of the other MVP candidates. He wasn't even the best QB in the NFC, that was Dak, maybe Goff. 

Purdy has more passing TDs than Lamar over the last two seasons. Only 200 less yards in almost 200 fewer pass attempts.

1 hour ago, Chiefer said:

he’s like early stage Tom Brady

Brady had his first 100 passer rating and first 30 TD season in year 7. Purdy did it in year 1 of starting.

I'm not saying Purdy is the best QB, that's Mahomes. Purdy had the best statistical season. McCaffrey had the best season of any offensive player. RBs are disqualified because reasons.

[Chiefer]

2 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

 

Brady had his first 100 passer rating and first 30 TD season in year 7. Purdy did it in year 1 of starting.

I'm not saying Purdy is the best QB, that's Mahomes. Purdy had the best statistical season. McCaffrey had the best season of any offensive player. RBs are disqualified because reasons.

Purdy is surrounded by talent on offense, four different all-pro caliber targets, and an offensive mastermind head coach. It’s also the year 2024, of course his offensive stats are better that’s a ridiculous argument. 

You put a young Tom Brady in the same situation and I’m almost certain he hits 100 passer rating his first season too. 

[Thomas5737]

2 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

It’s also the year 2024, of course his offensive stats are better that’s a ridiculous argument. 

Okay, lets do this then. Brady didn't lead the league in passer rating unit his 7th year starting. Purdy did it in his first.

Joe Montana had studs on offense but no one called him an average QB.

[Chiefer]

8 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Okay, lets do this then. Brady didn't lead the league in passer rating unit his 7th year starting. Purdy did it in his first.

Joe Montana had studs on offense but no one called him an average QB.

Purdy has 4 All-Pro Caliber targets to throw to, including a great running game, solid defense and an offensive mastermind head coach. Why did you ignore all that to just quote the year he’s playing in?

Tell me who the all-pro caliber targets Tom Brady had his first years in the league? Was his HC an offensive mastermind QB whisperer? 

Like it’s not an insult Brock Purdy to say he’s early stage Tom Brady lmao, he’s the GOAT. 

 

[ronjon1990]

I love how Purdy is either the greatest thing ever or utter trash. 

Someone says he's like early Brady, and folks taking it like an insult to Brock. That's wild. I think most QBs in general would love to be early Tom Brady. He was able to win, get paid, and focus in on becoming the best he could because of his surroundings, not in spite of them. If Purdy replicates even 1/4 of that, that's fantastic. 

[JIllg]

55 minutes ago, Forge said:

Yep. The MVP is mostly whatever. As soon as he dropped that egg against Baltimore, I took him out of that debate. You just can't do it in that spot. I think comparing him to Minshew is a bit much though. In the last week I've seen him compared to Minshew on here and I've seen someone equate CJ Beathard and Nick Mullens' performances with weaker 49ers teams as a possible indictment on how good Purdy actually is. That's ruiz level of hate. 

The fact that this was such a crappy MVP year probably goes more to @Thomas5737's point that in no way should Lamar have gotten 49 of 50 possible first place votes. This MVP year was kind of yucky as hell, I get the argument that there shouldn't have been a near unanimous selection. 

But I have made my concern about Purdy / Shanny in the playoffs known this entire last playoff season. I harped on his performances going into pretty much every game.  Like you said, high efficiency thing hasn't worked in the playoffs for the niners and Shanny. It did work to a degree with Shanny / Ryan in 2016, though there was some dial back as well. I just have a tough time separating whether it's a shanny or purdy thing. Purdy hasn't been Jimmy G in the playoffs, but the small sample size hasn't been kind either. And coincidentally, Goff was much the same with the Rams. 

Yeah, this is an odd place for the Purdy discussion and I'm sure folks have had enough of it. But if you were to tell me that his career progression looked like Ryan Tannehill's where he was an efficiency monster due to really gnarly play-action until that crutch was taken away or Drew Brees's as a short, physically limited, super accurate and efficient type, I could see those as either tail of the distribution curve. I think the most likely spot is someone like Matt Ryan or Dak. This past season was very, very similar to Ryan's MVP season. When things are really right, those dudes'll look like MVPs and challenge for the Super Bowl. Most of the rest of the time, they'll keep your team relavent. But they won't be MVPs without exceptional conditions. Lucky for Brock, it looks as though his coaching staff and teambuilding focus on weapons will provide pretty exceptional conditions most of the time. Unless you need the offensive line to pass protect.

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, Chiefer said:

Purdy has 4 All-Pro Caliber targets to throw to

Yeah, you have to get them the ball. Aiyuk has certainly been better with Purdy, three 100 yard games in 41 games without Purdy, eight in 22 with.

But again, I'm not saying Purdy is the best QB he just had the best season by a decent margin. No one was close to his rating.

4 hours ago, Chiefer said:

including a great running game, solid defense and an offensive mastermind head coach.

Lamar had the best defense, a very good running game not including himself and a championship coach.

 

4 hours ago, Chiefer said:

Tell me who the all-pro caliber targets Tom Brady had his first years in the league? Was his HC an offensive mastermind QB whisperer? 

Doesn't matter, Brady was more of a game manager that relied on his defense for his first several years. They weren't a big offensive threat. He did have talented pieces though, Troy Brown was very good and dependable, Branch and Patten were also decent. Faulk was one of the best pass catchers out of the backfield. Deebo does have 1 all pro year (and one probowl) Aiyuk has a 2nd team and no probowls (if they matter).

 

4 hours ago, Chiefer said:

Like it’s not an insult Brock Purdy to say he’s early stage Tom Brady lmao, he’s the GOAT. 

There is virtually no way Purdy ends his career and gets mentioned in the same breath as Brady. That isn't my argument, it's 2023. If no QB gets points given or taken away for things not under their control Purdy is the clear MVP among QBs. #1 seed. The best statistical passing season. He is discounted because of Deebo/Aiyuk/Kittle/McCaffrey (who I would have given the MVP, he was far better compared to his contemporaries than any QB was). Yet Purdy gets no mention or consideration. If his name was Trevor Lawrence I think he would have been MVP.