DE Tyree Wilson suffers knee sprain; Not considered long-term

[Jerry]

25 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Tim had a pretty solid rookie year showing he belonged in the nfl imo

tyree hasn’t shown that

Plenty of players have great rookie seasons just to fall apart later.  I've seen that happen.  Also, after the following seasons he had, I bet a lot of fans were thinking his rookie season was just good production on a mediocre team, a fluke.  

There's no way everyone saw that 1990 season and was like, "Yeah, he's about to be a Raiders legend."

[RaisinBran]

43 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Same. Especially when you draft a raw prospect. Understanding you drafted a raw prospect and then being like "why are you still raw" in such a short time frame is wild.

Just curious, but what do you guys see in Tyree at this point that make you think he's capable of becoming a player that will make any sort of impact for this team as a pass rusher? Don't you think it's kind of funny when defensive ends show zero ability to rush the passer (when that is a big reason why they were drafted high), and we start complimenting them on their "run support" to try and find something positive about them. Like Ferrell who could never get pressure but was "solid" in the run game just because he filled a hole or occupied a space.

Tyree had a full offseason finally and hasn't learned any new skill or technique, all he is right now when he's out there is a big body that occupies space. You need to be more than big and lengthy to be successful in the NFL as a DE. You were agreeing with this sentiment during the preseason GDTs and agreed with the fact that he has not shown any development of new skill or technique for pass rushing. I think we all can agree with that.

I think the criticism is warranted right now and it's up to him to prove people wrong, since we have seen no signs of development, and if Tyree is still getting injured it's just another excuse. I'm very close to wanting to move on from him at DE. I think we just need to use him exclusively on the inside where he actually made a few plays in the preseason. I just don't see him as a part of our future at DE, especially with how well Koonce played last year. If his injuries continue to pile up he'll be on another team in a few years just like Ferrell. I hope we do not waste high draft capital on injured players going forward in "hopes" that they'll recover from it. Especially lower body injuries that take more time to heal.

Luckily our defense is playing so well, it doesn't really matter right now or is as obvious to the average NFL fan how little he's developed. He still has some hype.

Lastly, I want to be clear that my criticism is more so of Ziegler/JMD for drafting him so high with his injury history. I don't think it's fair to Tyree, and he shouldn't have all this pressure on him to be a really good DE when he's clearly been limited by injuries and I'm assuming they are what is preventing him from developing into something special. I just don't see much trending upward for him even taking into consideration his play the second half of last year.

[RaisinBran]

1 hour ago, Darbsk said:

Eh? Tim Brown was a superb returner right out the box if I recall. He flashed immediately and whilst it took a season or two to become an elite receiver (he tore his ACL I think in year 2 and missed all season)  he exhibited plenty of talent early. Different time back then too when rookie QBs always say and rookies weren’t expected to contribute immediately in most cases.

Just had to check in my hard cover American Football Annual of 1988 😀

You're right, Tim Brown had a good rookie season (back when Teams did not pass as much) and displayed shiftiness that you could tell he had elite ability.

Also to the other poster's comment on Nnamdi... he was the 31st overall pick. You expect that to be somewhat developmental.

[RaisinBran]

1 hour ago, Justwinning said:

Yea when things happen in real time, the big picture doesn't have time settle in for people to process.

Let's say hypothetically, Tyree comes back from his injury, makes progress to finish the year. Then in year 3 he goes on a tear and all of our doubts go away. I think looking back years down the road, we would all laugh at how worried were in his first year and a half.

I feel you. But right now the criticism is warranted as a 7th overall pick, and he's going to have to prove we were right for drafting him so high. I'm rooting for him to be successful but we just haven't seen any flashes yet when he's on the edge. Hoping the injuries don't pile up for him because then he has no chance to improve. He's already been playing "catch up" in terms of development.

[big_palooka]

8 minutes ago, RaisinBran said:

Just curious, but what do you guys see in Tyree at this point that make you think he's capable of becoming a player that will make any sort of impact for this team as a pass rusher? Don't you think it's kind of funny when defensive ends show zero ability to rush the passer (when that is a big reason why they were drafted high), and we start complimenting them on their "run support" to try and find something positive about them. Like Ferrell who could never get pressure but was "solid" in the run game just because he filled a hole or occupied a space.

Tyree had a full offseason finally and hasn't learned any new skill or technique, all he is right now when he's out there is a big body that occupies space. You need to be more than big and lengthy to be successful in the NFL as a DE. You were agreeing with this sentiment during the preseason GDTs and agreed with the fact that he has not shown any development of new skill or technique for pass rushing. I think we all can agree with that.

I think the criticism is warranted right now and it's up to him to prove people wrong, since we have seen no signs of development, and if Tyree is still getting injured it's just another excuse. I'm very close to wanting to move on from him at DE. I think we just need to use him exclusively on the inside where he actually made a few plays in the preseason. I just don't see him as a part of our future at DE, especially with how well Koonce played last year. If his injuries continue to pile up he'll be on another team in a few years just like Ferrell. I hope we do not waste high draft capital on injured players going forward in "hopes" that they'll recover from it. Especially lower body injuries that take more time to heal.

Luckily our defense is playing so well, it doesn't really matter right now or is as obvious to the average NFL fan how little he's developed. He still has some hype.

Lastly, I want to be clear that my criticism is more so of Ziegler/JMD for drafting him so high with his injury history. I don't think it's fair to Tyree, and he shouldn't have all this pressure on him to be a really good DE when he's clearly been limited by injuries and I'm assuming they are what is preventing him from developing into something special. I just don't see much trending upward for him even taking into consideration his play the second half of last year.

To be fair, he's not played much to this season. Don't know where he is at. I had zero expectations to start with, didn't like the guy in the draft. Only commenting on the fact he was highly touted by some people, but needed time to develop. Dline takes time to adjust in the NFL. He missed a lot of time and played hurt in year 1. 

Odds are, it doesn't click. But he's on the team so all we can do is see if they can develop him. What else can you really do besides complain about what he's not? Move on in favor of what? 

[Jerry]

1 hour ago, Darbsk said:

He was a top prospect at the time and very highly rated. Flashed immediately also as a returner but had a big injury in year two I think. Obviously, those injuries took longer to recover from in those days and he wasn’t fully back till a couple years later. But, he was absolutely viewed as a potential top receiver and expected to statistically be very good. 

Quote from the American Football Annual of 1989;

“Brown confirmed the Raiders judgement in making him their first draft selection by setting the rookie all-purpose yardage record”

I'm just preaching patience.  He's in his second season and he hasn't even played a full regular season game this year.  Last year he was coming back from an injury.  I just don't want to give up on him yet.  I always think about players like Denico Autry (stats below) where he wasn't really showing anything and then he's been a pretty good DL since he left.

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Int	Yds	TD	Lng	PD	FF	Fmb	FR	Yds	TD	Sk	Comb	Solo	Ast	TFL	QBHits	Sfty	AV
2014	24	OAK	DE	96	10	0			0			0					0.0	13	9	4	3	1		1
2015	25	OAK	LDE	96	14	8	0	0	0	0	3	0	0	0	0	0	3.0	22	20	2	6	7	1	4
2016	26	OAK	LDE	96	16	7	0	0	0	0	2	0	0	2	0	0	2.5	29	21	8	6	4		4
2017	27	OAK	DE	96	16	3	0	0	0	0	7	0	0	0	0	0	5.0	36	23	13	9	9		3
2018	28	IND	RDT	96	12	11	0	0	0	0	1	2	0	1	0	0	9.0	37	28	9	13	11		7
2019	29	IND	RDT	96	14	14	0	0	0	0	4	1	0	0	0	0	3.5	32	20	12	4	11		6
2020	30	IND	RDE	96	14	13			0			0	0	0	0	0	7.5	33	20	13	9	10		6
2021	31	TEN	LDE	96	17	11	0	0	0	0	6	0	0	0	0	0	9.0	31	25	6	10	18		6
2022	32	TEN	DL	96	12	8	0	0	0	0	4	2	0	0	0	0	8.0	27	17	10	8	19		5
2023	33	TEN	LDE	96	17	14	0	0	0	0	4	2	0	0	0	0	11.5	50	30	20	12	17		8

I mean obviously there are players like Clelin Ferrell (still hasn't produced much) and I get why we cut them, but I want to at least give T. Wilson more than 19 games to prove himself.

[RaisinBran]

2 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

To be fair, he's not played much to this season. Don't know where he is at. I had zero expectations to start with, didn't like the guy in the draft. Only commenting on the fact he was highly touted by some people, but needed time to develop. Dline takes time to adjust in the NFL. He missed a lot of time and played hurt in year 1. 

Odds are, it doesn't click. But he's on the team so all we can do is see if they can develop him. What else can you really do besides complain about what he's not? Move on in favor of what? 

Understood and agreed on all you said above. It's highly unlikely he pans out with us based on how it's going but I appreciate people's patience and optimism. At the same time, I think it's fair to criticize the fact that he hasn't demonstrated any new pass rushing ability. It's more of a shot at the DLine coaching than him.

In terms of "moving on" it seems pretty clear he's not going to develop at DE so might as well try him out at DT. I'm not really sure what the best approach is at this point, but perhaps other teams may still see some "hype" in him. That's why it's almost pointless to talk about Tyree until we seem something new worth talking about or we consider trading him or releasing him (which seems inevitable at some point a year or two down the road), especially if he keeps getting hurt.

[Justwinning]

1 hour ago, Darbsk said:

I think it would help if he’d continued his trajectory from the end of his rookie year but he seemed to have regressed in pre season and got no joy from playing against 2nd and 3rd string which is worrying. The young man has time on his side, but there was an almost complete absence of pass rush plan, moves or counters. 

I know we now live in the age of instant gratification but his lack of fundamentals is extremely worrying. We all knew Namdi was a long, rangy project coming out and it was a given he’d take a few years if I recall, that’s why he was picked right near the end of round 1 if I recall, not top 10. Wilson looks like a day two prospect honestly but overdrafted in the top 10. Maybe it clicks and I’m sure everyone hopes it does but it’s looking less and less likely.

I think this a solid and fair assessment of the situation. I think the main issue is draft position since Tyree was 7th overall.

[Darbsk]

11 hours ago, Jerry said:

I'm just preaching patience.  He's in his second season and he hasn't even played a full regular season game this year.  Last year he was coming back from an injury.  I just don't want to give up on him yet.  I always think about players like Denico Autry (stats below) where he wasn't really showing anything and then he's been a pretty good DL since he left.

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Int	Yds	TD	Lng	PD	FF	Fmb	FR	Yds	TD	Sk	Comb	Solo	Ast	TFL	QBHits	Sfty	AV
2014	24	OAK	DE	96	10	0			0			0					0.0	13	9	4	3	1		1
2015	25	OAK	LDE	96	14	8	0	0	0	0	3	0	0	0	0	0	3.0	22	20	2	6	7	1	4
2016	26	OAK	LDE	96	16	7	0	0	0	0	2	0	0	2	0	0	2.5	29	21	8	6	4		4
2017	27	OAK	DE	96	16	3	0	0	0	0	7	0	0	0	0	0	5.0	36	23	13	9	9		3
2018	28	IND	RDT	96	12	11	0	0	0	0	1	2	0	1	0	0	9.0	37	28	9	13	11		7
2019	29	IND	RDT	96	14	14	0	0	0	0	4	1	0	0	0	0	3.5	32	20	12	4	11		6
2020	30	IND	RDE	96	14	13			0			0	0	0	0	0	7.5	33	20	13	9	10		6
2021	31	TEN	LDE	96	17	11	0	0	0	0	6	0	0	0	0	0	9.0	31	25	6	10	18		6
2022	32	TEN	DL	96	12	8	0	0	0	0	4	2	0	0	0	0	8.0	27	17	10	8	19		5
2023	33	TEN	LDE	96	17	14	0	0	0	0	4	2	0	0	0	0	11.5	50	30	20	12	17		8

I mean obviously there are players like Clelin Ferrell (still hasn't produced much) and I get why we cut them, but I want to at least give T. Wilson more than 19 games to prove himself.

Oh absolutely we should have patience with rookies, however, it is concerning to say the least with Wilson that he’s shown so little progression. He looks like a terrible fit to me from a skills point of view, looks like a 3-4 DE. Maybe he can bring something different but he has to at least show signs this year, show some moves or counters or show the power that he was supposed to bring. I think we all want him to succeed, I’m not optimistic though.

Edited September 18 by Darbsk

[NCOUGHMAN]

48 minutes ago, RaisinBran said:

You're right, Tim Brown had a good rookie season (back when Teams did not pass as much) and displayed shiftiness that you could tell he had elite ability.

Also to the other poster's comment on Nnamdi... he was the 31st overall pick. You expect that to be somewhat developmental.

This

[NCOUGHMAN]

52 minutes ago, RaisinBran said:

Just curious, but what do you guys see in Tyree at this point that make you think he's capable of becoming a player that will make any sort of impact for this team as a pass rusher? Don't you think it's kind of funny when defensive ends show zero ability to rush the passer (when that is a big reason why they were drafted high), and we start complimenting them on their "run support" to try and find something positive about them. Like Ferrell who could never get pressure but was "solid" in the run game just because he filled a hole or occupied a space.

Tyree had a full offseason finally and hasn't learned any new skill or technique, all he is right now when he's out there is a big body that occupies space. You need to be more than big and lengthy to be successful in the NFL as a DE. You were agreeing with this sentiment during the preseason GDTs and agreed with the fact that he has not shown any development of new skill or technique for pass rushing. I think we all can agree with that.

I think the criticism is warranted right now and it's up to him to prove people wrong, since we have seen no signs of development, and if Tyree is still getting injured it's just another excuse. I'm very close to wanting to move on from him at DE. I think we just need to use him exclusively on the inside where he actually made a few plays in the preseason. I just don't see him as a part of our future at DE, especially with how well Koonce played last year. If his injuries continue to pile up he'll be on another team in a few years just like Ferrell. I hope we do not waste high draft capital on injured players going forward in "hopes" that they'll recover from it. Especially lower body injuries that take more time to heal.

Luckily our defense is playing so well, it doesn't really matter right now or is as obvious to the average NFL fan how little he's developed. He still has some hype.

Lastly, I want to be clear that my criticism is more so of Ziegler/JMD for drafting him so high with his injury history. I don't think it's fair to Tyree, and he shouldn't have all this pressure on him to be a really good DE when he's clearly been limited by injuries and I'm assuming they are what is preventing him from developing into something special. I just don't see much trending upward for him even taking into consideration his play the second half of last year.

This

[NCOUGHMAN]

40 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

To be fair, he's not played much to this season. Don't know where he is at. I had zero expectations to start with, didn't like the guy in the draft. Only commenting on the fact he was highly touted by some people, but needed time to develop. Dline takes time to adjust in the NFL. He missed a lot of time and played hurt in year 1. 

Odds are, it doesn't click. But he's on the team so all we can do is see if they can develop him. What else can you really do besides complain about what he's not? Move on in favor of what? 

Snowden has shown more even Robinson 

Edited September 17 by NCOUGHMAN

[NCOUGHMAN]

58 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Plenty of players have great rookie seasons just to fall apart later.  I've seen that happen.  Also, after the following seasons he had, I bet a lot of fans were thinking his rookie season was just good production on a mediocre team, a fluke.  

There's no way everyone saw that 1990 season and was like, "Yeah, he's about to be a Raiders legend."

Point is Timmy showed something and looked special at times doing it as a rookie 

[Jerry]

2 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Point is Timmy showed something and looked special at times doing it as a rookie 

You're right.  Let's just cut ties and call it a day.  No reason to try any more.  Just give up on him and call it a complete loss.

[NCOUGHMAN]

2 minutes ago, Jerry said:

You're right.  Let's just cut ties and call it a day.  No reason to try any more.  Just give up on him and call it a complete loss.

Trade him for a 3rd he’s still young and maybe someone will think it was raiders system that failed him